Italy

Breaking away from the Second World War and paying a visit and tribute to the First World War. Coming this March, 2013
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Chacmool
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Re: Italy

Post by Chacmool » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:58 am

yeah but Italy also mobilized in Aug 1914.

Simplest Rule is (like the mandatory attack against Serbia) that AH is not allowed to attack Italy R1. This would only be one sentence in the rulebook LH.

(if we look closer it shouldnt even attack Romania since these two powers were officialy alligned to GE and AH in 1914)
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WILD BILL
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Re: Italy

Post by WILD BILL » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:39 am

This is a good option Chacmool, and would be the easiest way to go when you consider rules to implement. I also think that Turkey could be added to this statement as well. This would give both Turkey and Italy some options and much needed breathing room. It could also allow them to be the aggressors in some games as they were historically which is something that neither of these powers see in the games I've played (although historically w/Turkey it was Germany leading the way and in control of Turks for the most part).

I wouldn't be calling for a rule change to the base game here (to much to go into), but I would like some feed back (good or bad) as an optional rule to the game to give it a twist. I would like to hear from Larry as well. I remember a very early post from him saying something about the decision to start Italy at war made sense to him at the time because of the paragraphs it would take to make them a neutral power. Just wondering how you feel about it now.

Optional rule:
Ottomans and Italians start the game as neutral powers and can't be attacked until they themselves have declared war. Both of these powers must DOW by the end of their first turn and fully join their respective alliances (like the mandatory attack against Serbia). You can DOW at the beginning of your turn (before move phase), or at the end as you mobilize units. You don't need to perform an attack to DOW. This would only be a few sentences, and not too hard to understand IMO.

This would give the Italians & Turks some breathing room turn 1, and changes the opening of the game quite considerably. These two neutral powers would have the option to DOW at the beginning of their turn to perform attacks etc... or take a more passive approach moving units into defensive positions (ships to safety?), then DOW at the end of their turn (no battles but in better shape).


I do agree w/Coastcityo earlier statement that A/H had plans for an Italian pre-empt invasion, and this option could be lost in many games. It could still play out though depending on what each side does (I like having options). Maybe Italy doesn't attack into A/H lands turn1 and just beefs up the border. It could play out this way if say Germany comes down turn1 to dare Italy to cross over into A/H lands allowing A/H to invade on A/H2.


Flash, I agree that it seems strange to have the US building transports and inf (major war build up over 3-4 turns). That is a carry over from how the a neutral power collects/builds in G40 (I also think the US has too much peacetime income in G40 BTW). This method is defiantly debatable because you could do an insurgence of IPC's or draft inf etc...the turn you go to war to accomplish it. I also realize that most of the equipment the US used in WWI wasn't brought with them, but in this game the US needs to be ready to go turn 4 and you can't acquire equipment from your ally's by rule (Turks in similar situation with equipment as you have noted). So instead of a pretty big overhaul of established rules (no trading or attacking w/ally's) allowing neutrals to build over time works IMO as well as some of the alternatives. Maybe your peace time income should be cut in half (as opposed to your full income when at war) , but you would then need to adjust starting units, so IDK if it is worth it? As for Italy & Turks being able to collect, build and move as neutrals I don't see a problem, because they are in the thick of it and a build up of some sort seems right so they should have a starting bank of IPCs IMO. In the option I gave above they would be at war before their first collect income anyway, and where they can move depends on if they DOW at the beginning or end of their turn.

Glad to see this topic brought back WB

Larry
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Re: Italy

Post by Larry » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:17 pm

I'm also happy this topic has come back up. These changes being talked about all are efforts to link up better with history. They do get the game a bit closer to the actual historical story. Yet they fail to actually capture the actual historical story and when implemented they seem to muddy up the waters of the game experience. Do you think that I failed to ask these same questions and have many of these same thoughts? I decided against them and delivered the game you are now almost playing. The things being talked about and lobbied for here are all very interesting... but come with a boat load... I mean transport load of problems. House rule these ideas and have a ball.

Larry

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Flashman
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Re: Italy

Post by Flashman » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:42 pm

Bear in mind that nations in continental Europe had peacetime conscription; that is every able bodied man was expected to do military service, and consequently these counties always had large standing armies even in peacetime.

The UK and USA did not have this system; their populations were highly resistant to conscription as they considered themselves virtually immune to invasion.

The UK is easily represented as having a small starting army, but being able to go to conscription fairly early after declaring war.

America is very different, which is why I suggest that it can do nothing until declaring war (the USA should be controlled by the same player representing Russia); then, it gets a one-turn only draft of infantry @$1 each (i.e. max 20 units). Thereafter costs are normal. American taxpayers were not prepared to spend money on military for a war they weren't interested in joining, but had large reserves of manpower to call on when war came.

I propose that Italy, likewise, can do nothing on turn one unless it has been attacked. This gives Austria a dilemma: attack Italy A1 to gain a strategic advantage (but give Italy an extra turn to build, move & fight), or concentrate vs Russia and leave a neutral Italy immobile until Round 2.

For Turkey, I suggest it is considered neutral until it's own first turn, so Russia, France and UK cannot attack it.
If the proposal that Turkey cannot build mechanical units is followed, then suppose it can convert German & Austrian units in its own home tt at the end of the Turkish turn. The proposed neutrality gives Turkey a little breathing space to perform this upgrading before being attacked.
Of course there should be a German cruiser starting somewhere in the Med. The Berlin-Baghdad railroad needs to be in operation also...

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Chacmool
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Re: Italy

Post by Chacmool » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:01 am

WILD BILL wrote:This is a good option Chacmool, and would be the easiest way to go when you consider rules to implement. I also think that Turkey could be added to this statement as well. This would give both Turkey and Italy some options and much needed breathing room. It could also allow them to be the aggressors in some games as they were historically
I don´t see Turkey as aggressors at the arabic front. First Land units that opened the mesopotamian front were british-indish soldiers that saved the anglo-persian oil company and soon captured basra, while from caucasus Russian troops started the Bergmann offensive in November 14 against turkish armenia. Having said that, I am ok with OEs entry in the game as it is oob.

Italy always attacked by AH on turn 1 is much more a problem for me which, I have to repeat myself, could be solved with only one sentence in the Rulebook to make it feel historical correct. Tested it countless times and never saw any problems by the way..
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Yavid
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Re: Italy

Post by Yavid » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:57 pm

Flashman wrote:Powers should not be able to collect/build/buy until they're at war.
I'm only throwing in my 2 cents here but I do have to point out that the above statement may or may not be true. But in Axis and Allies Neutral powers are able to collect/build/buy before they are at war. See USSR G40, See USA G40, USA AA14, Anzac Pacific 40, UK Pacific 40, USA Pacific 40. and I know the last 3 are really just saying the same game 3 times. But the point is in Axis and Allies neutral powers do get a full turn and I don't know of one Axis and Allies game that a power's turn is basically skipped because they are neutral.
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Flashman
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Re: Italy

Post by Flashman » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:18 am

What I was saying is that there was a big difference between a Continental power on the one hand, and the English speaking countries on the other.

The European powers could go to full mobilization in a matter of weeks, where the entire adult male population could be in arms and already trained to fight due to military service.

For the USA in particular there was no such system, so when America declared war it was a huge task to conscript, train and equip a large modern army. The French got seriously angry it took so long because they didn't understand why America didn't train its manpower during peacetime for possible future wars.


The point about Italy is that, during the time it was not at and did not intend to go to war, it would already have a maximum "peacetime" military establishment, based on a budget of what forces taxes could afford to keep in uniform. This would not be exceeded (i.e. no new units would be recruited and payed for) until war was declared, and by and large this always applies to neutral countries, whatever their peacetime establishment might be.

Therefore, for a country not at war to keep buying new units is anachronistic and unfair to future opponents, since such a country can build up and deploy a wartime army under cover of neutrality.

Therefore:

Italy and Turkey should not have a turn until they are at war, whatever the means of determining when this happens. For Italy this probably means not until round 2; for Turkey its realistic that it declares war at the start of T1 - this is less important, though it does effect ships and movement through sea zones as so on. There's even a case for Turkey having to be "activated" by G or A.

Assume Italy does not declare war on I1; this gives Austria the dilemma of attacking neutral Italy A1 (and effectively giving Italy an extra turn) or using the turn to instead build up or use forces elsewhere, leaving neutral Italy standing this round.
Allowing Italy to build and move I1 removes this dilemma and makes an A1 attack on Italy essential (as well as unhistorical).

For America I prefer the same, with either a one-off cheap conscription turn as soon as America goes to war, or a much larger basic US income. As mentioned elsewhere the USA should be controlled by the Russian player; with American automatic entry possibly dependent on Russia being out of the fighting.

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Re: Italy

Post by WILD BILL » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:19 am

I have to say that after some though what you are saying makes a lot of sense for neutral powers Flash. Not only for this game but others like G40 as well. Take neutral Russia in G40, they always pull their forces back from the front line ASAP. It would be more historical if they couldn't do that because much of their army and air force was at the Front (got crushed). The USA is similar depending on the position of the Japanese navy. If Japan moves all ships to Caroline, the US abandons Pearl, if the Japanese navy stays on the Asian coast the US will stack Pearl (either case doesn't allow for a surprise attack).

I think there would have to be some tweaks to the starting units, or some limited builds as the enemy moves towards you though. The starting set-ups incorporates these units being pulled out of harms way, so you would have to replace expected losses somehow. A one time conscription would handle some of that, but not the loss of air/ships. Maybe you're given a limited budget to build units (1/2 your production?), but can't move any units. That way any units built couldn't get to the front lines because for the most part the IC's are in the rear.

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