Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
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mantlefan
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by mantlefan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:42 pm

Gargantua wrote:
Hm? 6 interceptors firing at 1. Avg one hit, Y/N?
Every bomber ALSO faces AA fire. Improving said average, depending on the amount of attacking bombers.
Ah so my math was correct, you just didn't actually read what I wrote. Thanks for clearing that up.

If you would actually have read it you would see that I was talking about how in almost every situation Germany would be trading for ftrs, and Germany would usually kill less Ami ftrs than Amis kill German ftrs.

My point is that German fighters do less IPCs of damage to the enemy than they lose in most situations. Considering an IPC is more valuable to Ger than USA, it's pretty abusurd in most every case to ever send up an interceptor. They have 0 advantages over escorts, and the Americans can usually spare more escorts than the Germans can interceptors.

So once again we are back to superpowered bombers against whom the only real defense is AA guns. I absolutely hated games of Revised where the AA and SBR rolls were the only things that mattered, and I question the sanity of anyone who wants to go anywhere near back to that.

I mentioned nothing of AA because that is fundamentally the same at it has been before (one of the few things that hasn't been extremely boosted).

Funny what happens to your attacks on me when actual evidence is brought into the equation.
Last edited by mantlefan on Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A lie never lives to be old.” — Sophocles

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Gargantua
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by Gargantua » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:48 pm

All the reason not to LOSE the battle of Air Supremacy. Germany starts with 12 aircraft, and is perfect capable of maintaining is air power, if it doesn't do anything stupid. Replacing lost aircraft here and there.

The new rules are great, the conclusion that you will suffer if you lose ALL of your planes is acceptable.

Again, Thanks, but NO THANKS.

mantlefan
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by mantlefan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:55 pm

So all 12 aircraft can intercept? What's your point? Absolutely no fighters will be needed on the Eastern front, or for defending Italy, or for taking out UK ships?

Interceptors pathetically rolling at 1 means that for Germany to defend against these SBRs-on-steroids effectively that they will need to give up on realistic hope of gaining Russia.

Sending up interceptors is now in most cases an ATROCIOUS idea. Once again we are back to AA guns vs juiced bombers, very similar to AA revised.

How many interceptors do you plan to have in the two Germanies? Realistically, how many?
“A lie never lives to be old.” — Sophocles

Pinch1loaf
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by Pinch1loaf » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Should be noted that by the time US can produce a sufficient amount of bombers to do the damage required to put Germany out of commission they have probably penetraded Russia significantly and have 60+ IPCs rolling is. Also as I have tested a semi-allamerican-bomber build and unless you go 100% Europe board your landing party is going to be pitiful at most. PLUS you have to put out 4 minors and 3 majors in Europe to knock out production and not all of those are reachable without a landing pad in Europe. Germany can get off ok as their major in Germany is sufficient to pump out whatever troops they need.

Suppose US went full out Bomber Mania on Germany. Japan is going to win I think. Its going to take US 4 turns to get bombers on england and a 5th to bomb the FRICK out of Germany. Germany doesn't need navy because theres no transports to stop. Germany doesn't need coastal defence because theres no landings to stop. Germany already has Russia backing up so all the extra defensive cash goes into fighters and you have a decent air war witht he states.

It could be too powerful but its not like you can't see it coming from a gazillion miles away. I don't care how much the US can bomb western europe it really doesn't mean jack all if they can't take ground. Germany could build a complex in Poland too if it gets that bad.

You know if US decides to go all out one end of the world good for them, they deserve to win that part of the war. I still wanna try it.

I'm kind of where you are on this Pinch1loaf . I think there well be games where the US player goes bomber heavy but he will certainly pay a price for such a strategy. Not sure it will even work. Still ... is a 1d6+2 too much? Come on.. it adds two points of damage. Is it really such a big deal? As I said earlier I'm intrigued by the idea of limiting damage to majors to 12 instead of 20, however.

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Gargantua
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by Gargantua » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:03 pm

Should be noted that by the time US can produce a sufficient amount of bombers to do the damage required to put Germany out of commission they have probably penetraded Russia significantly and have 60+ IPCs rolling
So all 12 aircraft can intercept? What's your point? Absolutely no fighters will be needed on the Eastern front, or for defending Italy, or for taking out UK ships?

DUDE!

Think about the game as a WHOLE.

It's going to be atleast turn 5 before the germans are even going to SEE Americans in the UK. And once there, what the hell are the going to bomb?

To even SEND fighters, they would need a place to land, which would either mean the british are providing empty aircraft carriers, or the Americans send thier own.

All for a few dice at 1d6+2??? This is Jennifers level of outright insanity.

Give me a break. Japan AND Germany will both win the game, if all America does is build bombers.

Worst case, WGR gets bombed. OH WELL. Germany has a plethera of other complexes to use... All good points...

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Kobu
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by Kobu » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:12 pm

Very nice. The best thing is that these rules are simple. I think I'll have no trouble explaining them even to new players. Just taking out one side firing first is a great improvement. I'll be playtesting this soon.

mantlefan
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by mantlefan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:24 pm

Who said anything about going "full out Bomber mania" in Germany? US has so much dough that they can buy 1-3 planes per turn and still have plenty of 50-60 Pac buys.

It's quite easy and quite useful for the Allies to get Norway with or without overpowered strat bombing.

I'm not sure why you suggest the Major in Berlin will still be up; it's quite within range of Norway.

No one said anything about bombing the minor factories in Europe.

It's the fact that both of Germany's main industrial areas are easily within range of Norway.

Why does it take 4 US turns? Why is Japan attacking on Japan 4? Most people I have heard say you need to attack earlier as Japan

6 fighters and 6 bombers are far less than the full production of 2 US turns. After that it's just mainenance and you can start grooving Berlin and Hamburg for 10-15 a turn each easy.

I still haven't heard an actual count of how many fighters people had in Germany and on the Eastern Front in these tests.

You mention " a sufficient bumber of bombers." How many is that in your estimation? What is UK doing during all of this?

Garbage like saying that I am claiming that the only thing the US needs to buy is bombers shows that there are very few people interested in making the game better; most just want to look right.

I never said USA should buy allllllll Bombers. I Did say that with these bombing rules, USA could exploit them to break the game.


Round 5 is the earliest that Bombers will reach UK? How many games do you win with that J4 of yours?

I want the game to be fun, and I am convinced that these superpowered bombers are not the way to make the game fun. Just don't go crying to Larry or anyone else when the superpowered bombers that many of you are asking for bring us back to the days of AA Revised with Tech.

"A few dice at 1d6+2" Garg? For real? Let's try looking at the game as a whole. That's 27.5 damage to Germany for each 12 IPC the USA loses. If Germany wants to send up ftrs, they will lose more money in planes than they will kill in the dogfight phase in most circumstances, because bombers can fire too.

Norway, Norway, Norway. It's not just W. Germany that can be bombed.

I want the game to be fun, and I am convinced that these superpowered bombers are not the way to make the game fun. Just don't go crying to Larry or anyone else when the superpowered bombers that many of you are asking for bring us back to the days of AA Revised with Tech.
“A lie never lives to be old.” — Sophocles

Pinch1loaf
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Re: Strategic Bombing Raids as of 10/10/11

Post by Pinch1loaf » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:07 pm

Ok Mantlefan let us consider the following....

Lets say you fear this US bomber exploitation. Given the new rules you want to prevent US from exploiting its this massive bomber boost from here on in known as MBB... MASSIVE BOMBER BOOST! Thats cool...

Anyways I am the Axis, I would not declare war with Japan until turn 3 as I have had heaps of success with a J3 attack. US will come to arms with say 3 bombers 3 fighters on turn 3 to England. Already that is at the expense of fleet in the Pacific giving Japan an upperhand. I guarrantee that without a 100% US build you aren't landing bombers in Norway until turn 6.

Turn 3 you move transports to canada or gibralter, turn 4 to england turn 5 landing norway. Granted also that by turn 4 you have sufficient force to deal with 3 subs a destroyer, cruiser, battleship, carrier, and 10 planes. I dare you to land on Norway that early.

Now how have you had enough resouces to build a big enough fleet to protect from this AND build enough bombers to hurt germany enough that it makes a dent PLUS troops to defend your bombers on norway.
What is UK doing during all of this?
They're too busy getting their trash kicked in Atlantic to build transports that will just die, let alone the ground troops to support a landing.

Seriously, how does anybody get a decent landing in europe early in the game without some seriouse luck? Theres a lot of valuable weakly defended american cheese just floating around. You can make semi decent headway in russia without planes you know.

Besides I tried this strat before. I had about 9 US bombers in England I pretty much leveled western germany. I had all 3 minors in France maxed, and maxed Western Germany Twice. It still wasn't enough to stop the Germans from taking moscow. See by the time you do enough damage Germany has already used the production it needed to make the units to hit Russia. If you plan to take Russia, you're army has to be made 3-4 turns before it falls. You might obliterate Germany by turn 10 but it already produced its invasion force by turn 6 which is precisly when you will be permitted to hit Berlin with Strats... Its too slow. Was worth a shot though. Maybe with the +2 it could be more viable.


Good analysis.
Last edited by Pinch1loaf on Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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