Alpha +3

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
User avatar
Kobu
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by Kobu » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:58 am

Infrastructure wrote:Larry,

I think you should pull the trigger on the UK bomber. How serious is this new Italian turn order? I do like the thought of breaking up the allied megaturn. A LOT of changes to the map to test though. SHould we be brainstorming this, or is it too much.
Thread noise is covering this up again. :lol:

Would anyone else like to playtest the Italy first map I made? Whether Larry goes with it or not, I'd like to test it out more.

Cmdr Jennifer
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:30 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by Cmdr Jennifer » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:37 am

Kobu wrote:
Infrastructure wrote:Larry,

I think you should pull the trigger on the UK bomber. How serious is this new Italian turn order? I do like the thought of breaking up the allied megaturn. A LOT of changes to the map to test though. SHould we be brainstorming this, or is it too much.
Thread noise is covering this up again. :lol:

Would anyone else like to playtest the Italy first map I made? Whether Larry goes with it or not, I'd like to test it out more.

Italy should be moved up between China and England. In the box rules they were between Australia and America, this would just restore the amount of allied turns before axis turns, but also solve the initial problem of British can-opening in the Pacific (Since America goes before England, England cannot, legally, can-open for America.)

England is thus put in peril. To rectify this we can move the British fleet to the GAME HISTORICAL location of the Red Sea next to Egypt (SZ 81.) I don't know about the actual history, but in Classic, that's where they were so you can point to precedent.

This, in turn, prevents the Italians from hitting the English, but allows the English to hit the Italians. Thus, the onus is moved from Germany HAVING NO CHOICE but to land fighters in S. Italy (to not do it is to invite destruction currently) to Italy having to choose to hit Jordan and close the canal, or try to weather the British attack. I find the latter to be more in line with how I feel the game is played everywhere else, on the board.

I do not feel any new units need to be added if the change is made this way. England is closer to Japan, but can still work on Africa with their fleet. Now the remnants of the fleet after destroying the Italians won't be lost to German counter attack, making England AND Italy stronger overall. This means one does not have to look at multiple different vectors when adding new units, since there are no more new units.

Units do not need to be taken from either side either. For one, the British may still attack the Maltese sea zone with airpower, so there's already a lost Destroyer/Transport for Italy. (Seems in line with expected losses from the Taranto casualty list...) or they can hit SZ 97 with airpower and still lose their biplanes.

I would still go ahead and change the Strategic Bomber in England. With the proposed changes to the Med, it would no longer be overwhelming for Italy and give England needed flexibility in the N. Atlantic.


On a personal note, I am still having a hard time justifying a bunch of drunk and lazy pilots, stumbling around the runway and maybe not getting killed getting to their planes, getting their planes on the runway and getting their planes down the runway to take off defending as well as a group of dug in armored units with sober commanders and infantry fire-support for directed fire on an attacking enemy. Especially as they are not dogfighters like the graduates of flight school. :P But that's just a personal thing. Zoomies, blah.
Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist.
Children already know that dragons exist!
Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed!

oztea
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Alpha +3

Post by oztea » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:40 am

Italy cant go first because
1. Its fleet has to be big enough to be the largest in the Med, if combined
2. On Italys turn it can combine it in one sea zone, and be untouchable

The important thing to represent Italys unprepared state is to scatter the Italian fleet in multiple sea zones, and give the UK, who should have the inititve in this theatre, the chance to dictate what part(s) of Italys fleet get removed

And on the comment about the attack being a Tac vs, BB, 2 CR, 1 DD that misses.....That isnt how the game works. On the first turn we have the resposibility to get across the effect of an attack like this. We dont say the french should have X infantry in paris becuase thats how many divisions were there?

The far reaching consiquence of Taranto was that Italy got sucker punched, and became gun shy. Its commanders backed the fleet much farther north (sz 95) to be out of range of UK air attacks, they 2nd guessed their future operations, always wondering "when is the next attack going to come". They left their fleet in port for most of the war.

Now how do we represent this? Well, considering 95 should be untouchable from the UKs perspective (the distance as well as the units there) and 96 was the historical convoy route to Italys african empire, and should have a token fleet and transport, and 97 is where Taranto happened...right around when the game starts, then the UK should have the option to put Italy on the defensive by making a favorable attack in this sea zone. Just as much as how Germany takes france on its first turn...as is the case historicly.

Im not asking to mirror history into turns 5, 6, 7.....but the setup has to reflect the geopolitical situation of the 1940's

What im asking for then is......
Make Taranto a "good" attack for the UK, and give Italy the potential to recover from it by modifyting their fleet.

User avatar
Kaufschtick
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Alpha +3

Post by Kaufschtick » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:59 am

EDIT- For those reading through this thread, I originally posted here that I was going to Dayton to play global Tuesday, and Larry posted some changes that we might want to try out.

In coming back from work, I accidentally wiped out this post, but was able to repaste back in Larry's suggestions thanks to Staefano1189 having quoted larry's comments! Whew!

Not only am I a bad speller, but I apparently suck on a PC too! Here are Larry's suggestions for our upcoming Alpha+3 gaming session:
Larry wrote:
Hey Kaufschtick:
You might want to read this and try some of it out.

New Turn Order
Germany Soviet Union Japan UK ANZAC Italy France China US (Please note... I'm editing this turn order proposal to now read: Germany Soviet Union Japan US China UK Italy ANZAC France )
Use 1d6+2 when conducting SBRS
Limiting built-in AA guns to 3 shots

Some NO changes.
Removing UK Pac. DEI NO
The UK & US NO for capturing France is removed and replaced with: The US (no longer also the UK) 5 IPCs if there is at least 3 US units in Normandy/Bordeaux or Holland/Belgium


New Victory Conditions
7 VCs on the Europe side which includes Moscow, or 8 without Moscow.

Setup changes being considered
Brit bomber replaces a French Fighter not British one .
Remove UK Normandy fighter
Remove airbase from Malta.
Remove airbase from Gibraltar
Adding 4th tank to Holland.
Adding 3rd tank to Southern Greater Germany.
Adding 3rd infantry to Norway
Add airbase to Quebec
Remove one French tank from Normandy and replace it with an artillery unit.
Removing Soviet BB and replacing it with a Cruiser (and NOOOOO.... this had nothing to do with IL's similar proposal)
Last edited by Kaufschtick on Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
Young, Rodger W., Private, 148th Infantry, 37th Infantry Division; born Tiffin, Ohio, 28 April 1918; died 31 July 1943, on the island of New Georgia, Solomons, South Pacific, while singlehandedly attacking and destroying an enemy machine-gun pillbox.

edfactor
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:05 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by edfactor » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:30 pm

Letting Italy move first is an interesting idea but I think to do that you would need to add something to the UK and France, and also move the Egypt fleet just outside the Med. France needs a battleship in SZ 93 and also add an Infantry to Gibralter.

Italy, in all likelihood, will not go before the UK. Nonetheless, the turn order (as presented above) does address the current Allied turn run (US, China, UK and ANZAC). No matter how this turn order ends up the Allies will always have to have at least 3 consecutive turns - there's no way around it.

Turn scenario
Germany Soviet Union Japan UK ANZAC Italy France China US. I find this interesting for several reasons. The first being – At some point the superpowers will all be following each other (US Germany Soviet Union Japan UK) as the game progressed. This would be followed with a block of minor powers I don’t see any issues with China going before the US.

The game would be shifting between the two theaters in the following way (Europe, Europe, Pacific, Europe/Pacific Pacific, Europe, Europe, Pacific, Europe/Pacific).
I like this turn order very much. The longest Allied turn sequence ends up being France, China, US.

User avatar
stefano1189
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by stefano1189 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:41 pm

Kaufschtick wrote:
Hey Kaufschtick:
You might want to read this and try some of it out.

New Turn Order
Germany Soviet Union Japan UK ANZAC Italy France China US
Use 1d6+2 when conducting SBRS
Limiting built-in AA guns to 3 shots

Some NO changes.
Removing UK Pac. DEI NO
The UK & US NO for capturing France is removed and replaced with: The US (no longer also the UK) 5 IPCs if there is at least 3 US units in Normandy/Bordeaux or Holland/Belgium


New Victory Conditions
7 VCs on the Europe side which includes Moscow, or 8 without Moscow.

Setup changes being considered
Brit bomber replaces a French Fighter not British one .
Remove UK Normandy fighter
Remove airbase from Malta.
Remove airbase from Gibraltar
Adding 4th tank to Holland.
Adding 3rd tank to Southern Greater Germany.
Adding 3rd infantry to Norway
Add airbase to Quebec
Remove one French tank from Normandy and replace it with an artillery unit.
Removing Soviet BB and replacing it with a Cruiser (and NOOOOO.... this had nothing to do with IL's similar proposal)
Larry, how did you do it?

It's the best setup i saw from the OOB rules.

The Mediterranean situation still has to be worked out.

None of these changes addresses the main concern that we all share as relates to the balance of power in the Mediterranean. In all these scenarios the UK still goes before Italy and will attack the Italian fleet. I made it clear in an earlier post that even if I adjusted the turn order of the UK and the Italians that their navy would be adjusted, pared down. That the Italian navy as it is was designed to be attacked by the Brits and that it was indeed inflated to weather this attack. It’s not what Italy starts the game with as much as it is what the Italian navy looks like at the beginning of I1. I think this proved too frustrating to the average player, especially as they had to sit back and watch helplessly as it vaporized. I must admit that I was probably asking too much of them. I took solace in the belief that a story was being told.

The question must be asked “Who is supposed to win this initial conflict? Italy! Why? Because it cannot recover where as the UK can. Italy also needs to gain access to IPCs other wise it is too easily overrun by the US.

On the other hand if Italy is left alone it will grow too quickly. This can be addressed with more UK units it Egypt (not yet included in the setup changes above). One way to slow down Italy is to reduce its number of transports. Give them what they need to assure the survival of at least 1 transport and a reasonable number of warships that can succeed at pushing the UK out of the Med or at least neutralizing them for all intent and purposes. It would be a good thing if Italy wins the early rounds of the game. I think it's important that they play a somewhat of a role when the US arrives.



The UK Med fleet will also have to be adjusted. There are both German and UK aircraft that also come into play here. Particularly notable is the new UK strategic bomber I want to introduce into the game.

I don’t like that the German’s are seemingly required to land fighter(s) in Southern Italy if the Italian navy is to survive. To not do so is not an option for them. This must change.

A minimum requirement is the survival of at least one Italian transport following the initial British attack and the relative possibility of a turn 2 and beyond survival.

Presently Italy is demonstrating some extreme states. It can go from a low of 25 with the loss of its fleet to 51 in round in later round if it remains in tack. This is probably due to the game's geography more so than the game mechanics per se.

Other Issues to Consider:
With the reduced possibilities of Sea Lion the UK can concentrate in the Mediterranean and North Africa.

The French fleet in Sea Zone 93 greatly complicates the situation.

An easy adjustment (supposedly) is to place an Italian DD in Sea zone 99. This should block the UK fleet in 98 from directly attacking 97. Personally I think your average UK player will end up not attacking the Italians if this DD ends up in 99. I find this DD placement to be rather ahistorical as well. The Italian navy was notoriously kept in home ports (even Sea Zone 96 off Libya should be considered a home port of sorts – but it’s pushing it).

User avatar
Infrastructure
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by Infrastructure » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:52 pm

Quoting Larry;
Hey Kaufschtick:
You might want to read this and try some of it out.

New Turn Order
Germany Soviet Union Japan UK ANZAC Italy France China US.
Use 1d6+2 when conducting SBRS
Limiting built-in AA guns to 3 shots

Some NO changes.
Removing UK Pac. DEI NO
The UK & US NO for capturing France is removed and replaced with: The US (no longer also the UK) 5 IPCs if there is at least 3 US units in Normandy/Bordeaux or Holland/Belgium


New Victory Conditions
7 VCs on the Europe side which includes Moscow, or 8 without Moscow.

Setup changes being considered
Brit bomber replaces a French Fighter not British one .
Remove UK Normandy fighter
Remove airbase from Malta.
Remove airbase from Gibraltar
Adding 4th tank to Holland.
Adding 3rd tank to Southern Greater Germany.
Adding 3rd infantry to Norway
Add airbase to Quebec
Remove one French tank from Normandy and replace it with an artillery unit.
Removing Soviet BB and replacing it with a Cruiser (and NOOOOO.... this had nothing to do with IL's similar proposal)


Wow. I don't want to say anything before testing, but man I already have a next to impossible time stopping my pals Germany.

If you limit a complex aa and increase bombers +2, I see those players that will just by bombers with US atlantic and nothing else, it seems strong, unless you can choose what your shooting at? 6 bombers a round SBR on Germany would often do max damage on a major with only a 50% chance for a bomber loss. I'm probably missing something here. What is it? WOuld interceptors go back to hitting bombers first?

For weeks everybody ( I thought) was complaining about SBR not being conducted because it was not cost effective. And now you're telling me that these adjustments won't work unless you can choose what your shooting at and interceptors hitting bomber first. In any case Germany has two major ICs and probably will capture 3 minors in France. If the US can shut them down... they deserves to win.

Noll
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:41 am

Re: Alpha +3

Post by Noll » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Infrastructure wrote:Larry,

I think you should pull the trigger on the UK bomber. How serious is this new Italian turn order? I do like the thought of breaking up the allied megaturn. A LOT of changes to the map to test though. SHould we be brainstorming this, or is it too much.

Working on several setup changes one of which is the UK bomber. It will probably happen.
Decided to beef up Germany a bit more.

The Italian turn order change will most likely not happen. I do see a turn order change occurring, however. It might look something like this... Germany Soviet Union Japan UK ANZAC Italy France China US.

I'm adjusting some NOs
Looking into the Victory Conditions 7w/Mos or 8wo/Mos

The BIG issues still remain to be the Mediterranean situation
SBRs and Convoy Disruption systems

Hey Larry! Be careful with turn order, if UK/Anzac goes before USA, they can act as can opener in the Pacific, like ti was in OOB. UK can also act as a can opener in the Atlantic.


Other than this, I like your new proposed setup change so far!

Are you telling me you'd prefer: Germany Soviet Union Japan US ANZAC Italy France China UK?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests