Tanks in AA1940

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
turner
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by turner » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:50 pm

The advantage mech infantry had in WWII was their mobility, which is represented quite nicely in game terms as we have it now.

The fighting power of infantry divisions varied from unit to unit, as it did with mech units also. I'm sure there were many cases of regular infantry units that did, or were quite capable of whipping mech units once the battle was joined.
However, when armor was added to the battle the mech unit's fighting effectiveness would be greatly increased.

In this game the fighting power from unit to unit does not vary, so taking the average infantry unit and then using the same men in a mech unit would they not be more effective?

turner
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by turner » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:54 pm

The advantage mech infantry had in WWII was their mobility, which is represented quite nicely in game terms as we have it now.

The fighting power of infantry divisions varied from unit to unit, as it did with mech units also. I'm sure there were many cases of regular infantry units that did, or were quite capable of whipping mech units once the battle was joined.
However, when armor was added to the battle the mech unit's fighting effectiveness would be greatly increased.

In this game the fighting power from unit to unit does not vary, so taking the average infantry unit and then using the same men in a mech unit would they not be more effective since they would be more mobile and have better equipment?

Häretiker
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by Häretiker » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:57 pm

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Last edited by Häretiker on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Häretiker
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by Häretiker » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:58 pm

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Last edited by Häretiker on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kaufschtick
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by Kaufschtick » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:17 pm

turner wrote: However, when armor was added to the battle the mech unit's fighting effectiveness would be greatly increased.
How so? Adding tanks in creases the fighting power of the force, but how do you reason that tanks showing up on the battlefield makes the mech infantry more effective?

Because the tanks take over the fight? That's not an exapmle of the tanks making the mech better, it's just an example that the tanks are better, which is a whole different line of reasoning.

The same can be said of infantry, that when you add armor to an infantry attack, the infantry become more effective.

Infantry units were equipped with anti tank weapons, that were quite effective against the thin skinned armor of mech units. Mech units were also more reliant on fuel supplies as well as parts. I was just watching the military channels "tank battles" series, and Peiper's soldiers in the battle of the Bulge had to abandon their vehicles and actually walk back out of that fight.

I think it's true to say that mech units were more effective in combat because they could so badly out manuever regular infantry units. But that's a maneuver issue, not a combat effective issue. In terms of actual fighting power, you can't just say mech wins, hands down. The terrain and weather may contribute to make just the opposite the case; that regular infantry will have the combat advantage over the mech unit.

My position is that the game, in game terms, is just fine as is with the mech units and infantry units. :)
Young, Rodger W., Private, 148th Infantry, 37th Infantry Division; born Tiffin, Ohio, 28 April 1918; died 31 July 1943, on the island of New Georgia, Solomons, South Pacific, while singlehandedly attacking and destroying an enemy machine-gun pillbox.

turner
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by turner » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:38 pm

Kaufschtick wrote:
turner wrote: However, when armor was added to the battle the mech unit's fighting effectiveness would be greatly increased.
How so? Adding tanks in creases the fighting power of the force, but how do you reason that tanks showing up on the battlefield makes the mech infantry more effective?
With the tanks added fire power helping to pin down enemy units, the mobility of the mech infantry would make them even more effective at surrounding and cutting off said enemy units. Without the tanks, as you point out, the mech infantry would have more of a fight on their hands. But mech infantry were specifically trained to work with tanks in this way because of their mobility.

This is why I think that the Improved Mech infantry rule of adding a +1 attack to mech when paired with a tank should be the standard.
Kaufschtick wrote: Infantry units were equipped with anti tank weapons, that were quite effective against the thin skinned armor of mech units. Mech units were also more reliant on fuel supplies as well as parts. I was just watching the military channels "tank battles" series, and Peiper's soldiers in the battle of the Bulge had to abandon their vehicles and actually walk back out of that fight.
This is a great point supporting keeping them both at 1 att 2 def when alone.
Kaufschtick wrote: I think it's true to say that mech units were more effective in combat because they could so badly out manuever regular infantry units. But that's a maneuver issue, not a combat effective issue. In terms of actual fighting power, you can't just say mech wins, hands down. The terrain and weather may contribute to make just the opposite the case; that regular infantry will have the combat advantage over the mech unit.


Since there is no terrain or weather in this game, I think that this part of your arguement actually supports the idea of adding some attack power to mech units. Especially since this manueverabilty on the battlefield is not modeled in the game in any way. The 2 movement in the game has no effect on actual battles only on getting to battles..
Kaufschtick wrote: My position is that the game, in game terms, is just fine as is with the mech units and infantry units. :)
You may be right, I may be crazy...

Captain Crunch
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by Captain Crunch » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:02 pm

turner wrote:You may be right, I may be crazy...
But it just might be a cheaper tank you're looking for!
Regards,
Captain Crunch

Take time from your busy day to play Axis & Allies and to eat a bowl of cereal.

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Imperious leader
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Re: Tanks in AA1940

Post by Imperious leader » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:17 pm

Tell that to the Germans who tried to take Bastogne from the lightly armed and under equipped paratroopers of the 101st.

The German troops fighting the 101st were 'volkssturm' infantry, which are nothing but Militia units and what Himmler called "rearguard swine". 101st Airborne are elite units matched against old men with diapers and sub-machine guns. Not even close.
Peiper's soldiers in the battle of the Bulge had to abandon their vehicles and actually walk back out of that fight.
Yes because Hitler didn't have petrol for them. This is not a common practice, but a desperate measure in light of the futility of that effort


Imperious leader wrote:
Its like saying Panzer Grenadiers are the same quality as regular Infantry. Its not even close.

The main advantage mech infantry had in WWII was their mobility, which is represented quite nicely in game terms as we have it now.

The fighting power of infantry divisions varied from unit to unit, as it did with mech units also. I'm sure there were many cases of regular infantry units that did, or were quite capable of whipping mech units once the battle was joined.

They had mobility and increased protection and this is a significant advantage. Fast moving units don't get bogged down with horses or dealing with many issues. Armored infantry are a class above regular infantry and are always ranked stronger with all other things being similar in terms of size of forces.
The armor in the game is just right at 6 IPCs. If you want the mech to attack at 2 when paired up with armor, then make them cost 5 IPCs.
Thats fine but give them a true 2 space movement no boost from artillery. Artillery does not 'boost' men in half tracks and armored cars
The deal is that everyone wants a sexier game. Infantry isn't sexy, but it was the foundation of all armies in WWII.

A&A does a good job of reflecting that with the current IPC costs, capabilities and rules as we have them at present.
Yes and since it changes all the time, it only proves the opposite:

Tanks are 3-2-2-5, then 3-3-2-5, then 3-3-2-6, so the so called good job must be a good job at changing like the mechanized infantry should change to 2-3-2-5
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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