Russian Front

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
Oakshield
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:45 am

Re: Russian Front

Post by Oakshield » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:20 pm

Trouble with the Russian invasion mid/late game shows production/supply line issues, not major setup inbalances. I'd be careful with adding German units to the East, as Larry said several times German should start by concentrating on France and taking pro-Allied neutrals should still feel like diverting resources from Barbarossa.

Of the several ideas floated, I'd be against a Romanian IC (as someone said, it diminishes German options since it has to be protected; if Germany wants it can build one), allowing Russia to DOW (Germany should dictate the tempo) or another German NO for holding Russian territories (it's easy for Germany to trade territories with its airforce). I would suggest a couple of other ideas, any comments are welcome!

On the German side, I would start by substituting some inf with mechs in Holland (3), Poland (1), Hungary (1) and Romania (1). The Holland ones would arrive later to Russia (it feels strange there's none there), while the others would have to turn 'back' to invade Yugo or Greece. In increase the effort to invade Yugo, the inf in S.Germany(4) could go to Germany (2) and W.Germany (2). Tanks, if they are to be added, should also be on the Western front for the same reasons. This would make the invasion of France easier, so French defences could be upped (and the Paris Brits moved to Normandy; German tanks and mechs should survive with aircover). Inf and art should only be added in Germany.

I'd also tweak German NOs. First, make the 'first round' NO include territories taken by Italy 'can openers' ('territories captured by European Axis at the end of the first turn that Germany attacks'). Second, substitute the Egypt and 'not at war with Russia' NOs by Germany controlling territories with oil: +5 (edited from +3) for each of Romania, Caucasus, Iraq, S.Arabia and Persia (only Germany; see my post on the main thread on how Axis NOs should be 'selfish'). This would make Germany seriously consider investing in an Afrika Korps with the Med IC (moving a unit to Egypt is now too easy and seems a bit pointless).

On the Russian side, I'd be very happy if Ukraine got an IC, it would give Germany the lifeline it needs mid/late game. I would definetly remove the Stalingrad IC: it's not 1940 and, more importantly, it would give the Russian player the strategic choice on buying units immediately or investing on production. I believe sooner or later the IC will be built in Stalingrad, it's the safest territory and it would be need to prevent Germany running for Caucasus/Middle East oil.

There should be some Russian Black Sea navy (1 CC 1 tran) to make a naval Middle East takeover a bit difficult. Because the Southern route would be so attractive for the German invasion, the Leningrad airbase could be removed and a DD added to the Russian Baltic navy - Germany should have air superiority there. The Bury stack could be peppered over mid USSR, arriving piece meal to Stalingrad and Moscow if Japan stays quiet. I wouldn't mind some mech, figs or even tanks in Sakha, which would go the same way - Russian forces in the East were crack troops, and the 'non-agression' NO is sufficient to keep them quiet (the 'all inf' decision precedes that NO).

Finally, to compensate Russia for the loss of the Stalingrad IC there could be some premium on units killed during the 'first round' German attack. NOs represent political priorities, and the USRR placed fanatical importance on resisting at all costs and little importance on losses - the later-to-be KGB was stationed behind the line and shot any retreating troops. I'd propose a Russian 'hero of the Motherland' NO: 4 IPCs for each German unit killed the round Germany attacks. This would again involve a strategic decision by the Russian player on what could it sacrifice in the early stages of the invasion.
Last edited by Oakshield on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SirEdward
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:09 am

Re: Russian Front

Post by SirEdward » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:55 pm

@ Kobu

Come on, don't be so theatrical... :wink: :) I usually follow gameplay rather than history when I make suggestions. Then again, I'm just giving imputs: Larry is very well capable of ignoring things he doesn't like (and I'm fairly sure he doens't like this one already).

@ Oakshield

I find your proposal for a "oil" NO very interesting, though I am a bit doubtful about the timing and resources needed. Romania is there from the start, and Caucasus is still accessible (though not easy), but the others are really a bit out of range. They can be reached, if at all, only by diverting resources when they are most needed. Germany already struggles to get to Egypt, and I've never seen them getting beyond Caucasus at best. Any unit sent to middle east is a less unit for Moscow, and the Uk can get there in no time to contest.

On the russian ideas, I think you are proposing an even stronger USSR than it is now.
"they're coming out of the ***damn walls" (Japan Player speaking of Chinese infantry).

MarkVIIIMarc
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:12 pm

Re: Russian Front

Post by MarkVIIIMarc » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:12 pm

First with my on game experience.

Even with the 12/29 germany is not hopelessly at a dusadvantage in Russia but it does need a Japanese threat or good fortune to win the three cities outright. My German forces moved all around Russia once again trying to trap the infantry atacks in kill zones. Usually I can honestly force them out of either Lenningrad or Stalingrad just not both. The other I can take off and on but have trouble honestly holding it.

Sometimes my tanks and mechs even bleed off Stalingrad to go capture or at least threaten Calcutta and help the Pacific victory city cause.

Typically Russia sacrifices its offensive power on the eastern front to slow down the Japanese.

To help Germany? I like the oil national objective. Anything like 'southern russian territories are worth twice their value to germany' would be great. Might make the Russians fight for them too.

Perhaps a mech or two and an extra artillery in the east for Germany would be plenty of land units. Dont want to make them so strong they can brainlessly push east.

Oakshield
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:45 am

Re: Russian Front

Post by Oakshield » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:25 pm

SirEdward wrote:I find your proposal for a "oil" NO very interesting, though I am a bit doubtful about the timing and resources needed. Romania is there from the start, and Caucasus is still accessible (though not easy), but the others are really a bit out of range. They can be reached, if at all, only by diverting resources when they are most needed. Germany already struggles to get to Egypt, and I've never seen them getting beyond Caucasus at best. Any unit sent to middle east is a less unit for Moscow, and the Uk can get there in no time to contest.

On the russian ideas, I think you are proposing an even stronger USSR than it is now.
Thanks for the comment! I should've put +5 for oil territories, I'll edit that. The ideia with including Romania, besides the historic importance of the Ploiesti fields, is to substitute the 'not at war' NO for a semi-permanent +5. You're right that a Middle East offensive diverts resources, that's why the reward should be great. Germany can use the Med IC or a Southern Russia invasion to breakthrough, we haven't see it because the incentive hasn't been there. Controling that area (with Jap and Italian help) would give +20 IPCs to Germany, allowing longer term strategies.

You're also right that I'm making Russia stronger (except removing the Leningrad airbase, that's a big hit for its defence), I'm just trying to convince Larry to go along with swithing the Leningrad IC for the Ukraine one (which is also quite big)! The USSR lost a lot with its western territories, and relocating its industries East was probably the move that won the war. If ICs can be built and if we have a 1940 setup I'd really like to see that happen.
Last edited by Oakshield on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Daedelus
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:54 am

Re: Russian Front

Post by Daedelus » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:28 pm

What about adding an airbase or two for the Germans on the Russian Front? One in Romania and another in poland? Combine that with a Minor IC in Romania and a Minor IC in Ukraine and you can solve some of the German problems (mobility and Supply) with out having to add a lot of ground troops.

It also is hardware which can be captured so it forces the Germans to pay attention to the Eastern Front very carefully so as to not let the Russians Build up too much on their boarder and go for a quick facility grab.

So:

1) It defacto make Sea-Lion more unatractive (though still very possible) beacuse the Germans must pay attention to their southern boarder with Russia.
2) It puts a resupply area close to the Russian boarder in the south which will increase action there.
3) The airbases add moblity to the Germans with out adding too much fire power.
4) The facilities can be captured so it isn't an overwhelming German advantage.
Last edited by Daedelus on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m7574
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Russian Front

Post by m7574 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:31 pm

sounds like you have a good feel for the Eastern front MarkVIIIMarc. That is exactly what I've seen in my games too.

Germany doesn't have a problem advancing into Russia. They have the advantage of not having to protect a capitol there. Russia HAS to defend Moscow, so the Axis can always take one or both IC's.(other than moscow)

I like the Stalingrad IC even if it's not in a convenient location. Maybe adding another in S.Ukraine or Rostov would make the southern path more enticing than Leningrad. But I don't like an IC in Romania. being able to add 6units to the front would certainly make the stalingrad path more enticing.

I don't like 5of7 type NO's at all.

I would love to see an Afrika Corps, but in order to do that Italy must spend their income on the Med and can't send much help to the eastern front. It's not optimal allocation of resources for the Axis.

Natasin
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Russian Front

Post by Natasin » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:51 pm

m7574 wrote:sounds like you have a good feel for the Eastern front MarkVIIIMarc. That is exactly what I've seen in my games too.

Germany doesn't have a problem advancing into Russia. They have the advantage of not having to protect a capitol there. Russia HAS to defend Moscow, so the Axis can always take one or both IC's.(other than moscow)

I like the Stalingrad IC even if it's not in a convenient location. Maybe adding another in S.Ukraine or Rostov would make the southern path more enticing than Leningrad. But I don't like an IC in Romania. being able to add 6units to the front would certainly make the stalingrad path more enticing.

I don't like 5of7 type NO's at all.

I would love to see an Afrika Corps, but in order to do that Italy must spend their income on the Med and can't send much help to the eastern front. It's not optimal allocation of resources for the Axis.
It's too bad South Africa doesn't have a victory city, but one Afrika Corp incentive might be making South Africa an Axis Objective or at least least an Italy Objective. I'm been tempted to playtest a game where I send Germany south heavily...

m7574
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Russian Front

Post by m7574 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:11 pm

I like the idea of more mobile units in the far east. Most players know that when russia historically peeled units back from the east it helped turn the tide against Germany. So if Japan offers little threat in Manchu, russia should be able to peel some mech and an armor back to moscow. It takes something like 7 turns currently!

4inf Amur become 3mech
2 or 3inf Sakha become 1arm

its a little more historical but does it improve the game?

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