Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Link up A&A Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940, and you've got Axis & Allies Global 1940.
Captain Crunch
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by Captain Crunch » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:20 pm

Hmm, just read some more posts on this thread. Maybe I will try it with a Japanese push/threat toward the US in the Pacific. I like the idea of Sea Lion just didn't see it as viable and still not convinced that this overall strat would good. However, what I immediately liked about this game was all the different strategies that can be employed and I want to try them all to make the game the most exciting it can be. Sea Lion could make a difference is Japan is played really, really well.

Russia can move their Battleship up to Denmark to avoid an invasion (which they did in our game) and purchase a destroyer to delay one more round if they need to since they have the IPC's to do so. So you can remove the IMMEDIATE threat of 'sea barborossa' quite easily.
Regards,
Captain Crunch

Take time from your busy day to play Axis & Allies and to eat a bowl of cereal.

WILD BILL
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by WILD BILL » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:30 pm

Good read LoafOfBread. We know Sea lion is very doable. What we don't have to much data on is the after math if the allies can push back on Germany and get the game into say the 9-10 round (where allies should rebound). We have also called games in the 5th turn or so, because of time, poor play/bad dice etc.... In those shorter games I always have a question in my mind if there could have been a comeback (either side), or would it have played out different had the allies/axis done something else (minor tweaks that make a dif).

In the last game that we didn't finish, ended turn 5 do to slow Jap play (German player not to happy). Germany had threatened Sea lion a couple times (only had 5 tpts). Had Japan turned towards Russia after killing off China (think he had 15-20 ground units on or near the border), he could have made a run for Stalingrad IC (and gobbled up some Russian income). Germany could have built more tpts (to over run England), and with Japs help most likely would have leveled Moscow at about the same time. Germany already had Leningrad in a bloody battle (Ger lost 20 inf and a plane to AA). Germany had about a 50% chance of taking Moscow on its own, but I think there would have been at least 4 US planes there to tip the scales from India fleet, after the US planed invasion of Iraq (was on the way IC?). The Jap player didn't want to break the Nap, and was fearful of the UK (India) troops wondering up into Asia (start lib China). IMO (was on allies) along w/German player opinion the Jap player had enough ground to push into Russia, and keep India quite (also had an IC in Asia, and could have shuttled in more units). The UK (India) sent all of its fleet and most of its air to the Med. Italy was about to fall (double hit with over powered UK/US), but if we lost Moscow, and a real Sea lion was a go, then I think its still game on. Germany was pretty thin in w Europe, and US would have ended up w/S Italy IC no doubt. There are also the French IC's (including the new one in S France) that the US could have gotten hold of. The Jap fleet was impregnable (couple BB's, and 6 loaded carriers), and we couldn't get him to split it up at that point. After the fall of Italy though we (allies) would have had a lot of extra fleet to push into the Indian ocean to combine w/bulk of US fleet now off coast of India. A more aggressive Japan defiantly would have made a dif, and the game could have easily went 10 rounds (maybe no winner determined) IMO with a Sea lion involved.

LoafOfBread
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by LoafOfBread » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:53 pm

Thanks everyone, especially Larry, for reading.

@WILD BILL yes I agree we need more data. Of the two games I mentioned, one ended at the end of the Turn 3, the other at Turn 7 I think. In the longer the Axis had the lead in troops on the board by far. Russia and Germany had stalemated on the eastern front, and Axis income was slightly below the Allies. The Japanese player hadn't done as good a job as he'd hoped, and we agree it would look even better for the Axis had he done more damage to the UK-Pacific. It was pretty hard to decide what would happen by turn 10.

@Kobu - agreed. Next game (this Friday) I will write down every turn and every level of income. In the game of Italy going to $40 by turn 5, Italy had 1 or 2 French provinces, every Med province along the coastline, Iraq, Sudan, Yugoslavia, Greece, and had just taken their first Russian territory - Causcus I think. If you add up the income and NOs for Italy you will see this is possible. It's especially possible with UK building only infantry in London and withdrawing their Med fleet, and Italy keeping their entire starting fleet because of it.

@natasin - Agreed, in concert with Japan keeping America busy in the Pacific, Sealion can be devastating. This is definitely possible for Japan to do. I really like the Pacific and how it plays out in this game. With American pouring all their income into the Atlantic, Sealion will just backfire on Germany. I kind of don't like UK buying only infantry for 3 rounds, but I'll accept it - only if it means success in London. Unfortunately it doesn't mean success if Germany goes all out with a Scotland G3, London G4 attack. I'd rather see a repositioned UK fleet. They've been at war for over 6 months, why are their UK ships all spread out and ripe for the taking?

@Quaker General - good points, thanks. Agreed. Still uncertain if Allies CAN recover with strong Axis play, we'll see about doing a 12 turn game and see what happens.

Thanks everyone, I enjoyed reading your posts and I am glad we are having a good discussion about Sealion. I agree that if UK is foolish and doesn't protect London, UK can and should be punished with Sealion. I don't hate Sealion or Germany. Where I have objections is where UK does everything possible to defend London (infantry/fleet withrdrawl/sacrifice the Med) and still loses London and basically sits out of the game for several turns. I would prefer to not have a game where a "script" is always the same for the first 3 to 4 rounds.

WILD BILL
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by WILD BILL » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 pm

LoafOfBread wrote: Thanks everyone, I enjoyed reading your posts and I am glad we are having a good discussion about Sealion. I agree that if UK is foolish and doesn't protect London, UK can and should be punished with Sealion. I don't hate Sealion or Germany. Where I have objections is where UK does everything possible to defend London (infantry/fleet withrdrawl/sacrifice the Med) and still loses London and basically sits out of the game for several turns. I would prefer to not have a game where a "script" is always the same for the first 3 to 4 rounds.
Yeah but just think of the fun the Russian player will have once they are at war. Maybe a successful Sea-lion should trigger Russia going to war. I don't think it works for game play, but Stalin very well may have broke their pact if Hitler threw every thing at UK. Many think that was his plan to let Germany/UK destroy each other, then make a move to expand his own empire.

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Kobu
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by Kobu » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:39 pm

LoafOfBread wrote: @Kobu - agreed. Next game (this Friday) I will write down every turn and every level of income. In the game of Italy going to $40 by turn 5, Italy had 1 or 2 French provinces, every Med province along the coastline, Iraq, Sudan, Yugoslavia, Greece, and had just taken their first Russian territory - Causcus I think. If you add up the income and NOs for Italy you will see this is possible. It's especially possible with UK building only infantry in London and withdrawing their Med fleet, and Italy keeping their entire starting fleet because of it.
That will work. However, I would advise no matter what happens, the UK attack Italy. I don't care how much is bearing down on England, Italy punished by UK and France is a game changer and can't be overlooked when trying to balance things. Withdrawing seems to be a very poor response to a Sealion threat.

LoafOfBread
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by LoafOfBread » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:18 pm

@Kobu
However, I would advise no matter what happens, the UK attack Italy.
I wonder how we are so far apart in strategy, it's almost as if we are playing a different game? The last time UK attacked Italy's fleet in Turn 1, and built all infantry in London, the UK lost London to Sealion with ease in Turn 3. Sure, Italy was slowed down, but Italy retained almost half its fleet, rebuilt and was still expanding in the med by turn 4. The Germans finished off the AC in the Med. By turn 5, Russia was stalemated with Germany on the NorthEastern front and being pushed back in the Southeastern front. To even have a chance of preventing Sealion requires UK to put all it can into defense of London, including its fleet.

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Kobu
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by Kobu » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:59 pm

LoafOfBread wrote:@Kobu
However, I would advise no matter what happens, the UK attack Italy.
I wonder how we are so far apart in strategy, it's almost as if we are playing a different game? The last time UK attacked Italy's fleet in Turn 1, and built all infantry in London, the UK lost London to Sealion with ease in Turn 3. Sure, Italy was slowed down, but Italy retained almost half its fleet, rebuilt and was still expanding in the med by turn 4. The Germans finished off the AC in the Med. By turn 5, Russia was stalemated with Germany on the NorthEastern front and being pushed back in the Southeastern front. To even have a chance of preventing Sealion requires UK to put all it can into defense of London, including its fleet.
Well, I just have to say I disagree. If you've got the time, I'd be willing to do a few games on the A&A.org forum as the Allies and I'm sure others would too. Maybe you've got some moves I haven't seen, but Sealion seems like a loser to me unless the UK doesn't purchase well.

Natasin
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Re: Operation Sea Lion in Global 1940 Alpha 1+

Post by Natasin » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:31 pm

I'd sure be interested to see how a game like that plays out. Seems less fun though if you know one of you is going to Sealion.

Though theory only goes so far before practical experience weighs out.

There are a few tricks that Germany can do to make Sealion a little more plausible by G3. I won't share them though until after you guys hash it out though. :P

I do agree that dumb UK buys = doomed England. I bet we can all agree on that! :lol:

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