Question About Transports

Naval strategy and wise economic moves are both critical in waging this far-flung war across an entire hemisphere. To the familiar elements from Axis & Allies, Axis & Allies: Pacific adds convoys, island air and naval bases, kamikazes, destroyers, and the Chinese army.
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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Thu May 05, 2005 11:09 pm

OK, let's forget about sub-stalling for a second and review the normal rules for transports not starting the turn in enemy-infested waters, since I think this is where the real issue is.

To review the applicable rules:
Units may load and unload on the same turn, only if the units belong to the same power as the transport, and the transport has not been in combat before loading.
A transport that has been in combat may load OR unload after combat, but not both. It may not move.
In addition, we have already established that loading and unloading of transports is a movement of the unit(s) being loaded/unloaded, not the transport itself, therefore here are some examples of legal and illegal moves:

Legal:
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload for an amphibious assault.
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, but the amphibious assault is called off because of loss of the requisite naval battle. The units stay on board the transport.
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units stay on board the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload in a friendly territory.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload in a friendly territory while other units in the same territory load onto the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units stay on board the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, a transport moves then "bridges" units between 2 territories.

Illegal:
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, but the amphibious assault is called off because of loss of the requisite naval battle. The units on board the transport unload in a friendly territory in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, 2 units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then one of the units unloads for an amphibious assault. The other unit unloads in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units on board the transport unload in a friendly territory in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units then stay on board the transport. (Loading units in combat movement without a combat to perform)
  • In combat movement, a transport moves into a naval battle. In non-combat movement the transport "bridges" units between 2 territories. (Loading and unloading after combat)
We can also say that units that begin the turn already on a transport can do pretty much anything they want short of performing an amphibious assault then loading back on the transport, since there is no other way for an individual unit to move in both combat and non-combat movement under these circumstances.

OK so far?
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Krieghund
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Re: SUBS are MUCH more then huh?

Post by Krieghund » Thu May 05, 2005 11:12 pm

GROGnads wrote:Has anyone even 'bothered' to take into account of allowing the SUBS to inflict ''I.P.C. losses'' as since they were primarily 'concerned' with doing just THAT?!?
Have you checked out the sub rules under the "3rd Stage of Advanced A&A" forum?
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GROGnads
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nope

Post by GROGnads » Fri May 06, 2005 12:17 am

As I so 'elegantly' put it beforehand, I had NOT even so much as desired to peruse the ''L.H.T.R.'' set of 'Rules'~mainly because I didn't WANT to!

Now, this 'business' where mention is made that a 'Transport' loads, moves, and unloads and THEN other 'Cargo' is allowed to be 'Loaded' sounds to ME like too much going on! IF the 'Cargo Limits' had NOT been exceeded during the current TURN, then I'd suppose that it is permitted~otherwise, just WHAT is the purpose for this? I guess if you wanted to AVOID 'losing' certain Units in that 'place' from which they are 'Loading' from(in perhaps an upcoming 'Battle' that could take place)-THEN it makes some 'sense'. Otherwise, why not just WAIT until the NEXT 'Turn' to 'Load & Transport' those, since I'd figure that ANY 'Units' have a much better DEFENSE than onboard a 'Transport'!

Also, it was MY 'understanding' that once an 'Unloading' of a Transport takes place, then it is NOT to be further 'Moved' FROM the 'S.Z.' that this is taking place within! Sort of like being UNABLE to 'Transport and UNLOAD' into '2' seperate AREAS from the same vessel. I've allowed THAT in MY own 'Games' since if there were '2' eligible 'Targets' AND '2' eligible 'Units' within the SAME 'Sea Zone', then WHY NOT?!? Remember, these 'pieces' represent MORE than just a single WHATEVER, and there are plenty of instances in which this DID 'happen', but you'd really have to be 'up' on your 'Historical' knowledge to figure that out! I'd also 'allow' that as long as a 'Transport' doesn't EXCEED its 'Moves' then it should be able to ''Move, drop-off, continue Moving, etc. WHO 'decided' that THIS was ''too much''? Play RISK instead then!

Yes, I am also aware of some folks taking issue with 'Transports' as FODDER in 'Naval Combat'~you can NOT take them into a 'Sea Zone' just by themselves where 'Enemy Vessels' are present, PLUS they have NO 'Attack' and realistically, they WERE 'Defended' or placed out of 'harm's way' as best as they could. I'd even go so far as to confer upon an 'Enemy Naval Base' the ability to PREVENT unacommpanied 'Enemy Transports' from coming near those~to represent 'fear of the Unknown' Enemy's STRENGTH due to them.

I'd also like to bring UP the 'fact' that in MY ''BANZAI!'' Rules, that we HAD an ''Attack Transport'' as a 'Tech'!, as well as an ''Assault Transport'' that would KEEP on ''taking a SHOT'' during an 'Amphib Assault'~and yeah they DID have those with 'Rocket Launcers' and GHQ even 'makes' one-I've got some of these, while I even had ended up making one of these as a 'piece' before I found out about the GHQ kind. I also 'made' an ''Attack Transport'' piece from another GHQ Ship of an actual 'Japanese' kind but I added a part of an ''A&A''-'Transport' to further 'distinguish' this AND it was limited to ONLY 'carrying' just '1' item to allow for the 'arming' of it! The ''Assault Transport'' couldn't CARRY anything since it was mainly a 'Support' vessel, but it did keep on 'shooting' during any 'A.A.'!
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

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Krieghund
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Post by Krieghund » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:55 pm

Krieghund wrote:OK, let's forget about sub-stalling for a second and review the normal rules for transports not starting the turn in enemy-infested waters, since I think this is where the real issue is.

To review the applicable rules:
Units may load and unload on the same turn, only if the units belong to the same power as the transport, and the transport has not been in combat before loading.
A transport that has been in combat may load OR unload after combat, but not both. It may not move.
In addition, we have already established that loading and unloading of transports is a movement of the unit(s) being loaded/unloaded, not the transport itself, therefore here are some examples of legal and illegal moves:

Legal:
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload for an amphibious assault.
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, but the amphibious assault is called off because of loss of the requisite naval battle. The units stay on board the transport.
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units stay on board the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload in a friendly territory.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units unload in a friendly territory while other units in the same territory load onto the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then the units stay on board the transport.
  • In non-combat movement, a transport moves then "bridges" units between 2 territories.

Illegal:
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves, but the amphibious assault is called off because of loss of the requisite naval battle. The units on board the transport unload in a friendly territory in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, 2 units load onto transport, then the transport moves, then one of the units unloads for an amphibious assault. The other unit unloads in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units on board the transport unload in a friendly territory in non-combat movement. (Mixing combat & non-combat movement)
  • In combat movement, units load onto transport, then the transport moves into a naval battle. The units then stay on board the transport. (Loading units in combat movement without a combat to perform)
  • In combat movement, a transport moves into a naval battle. In non-combat movement the transport "bridges" units between 2 territories. (Loading and unloading after combat)
We can also say that units that begin the turn already on a transport can do pretty much anything they want short of performing an amphibious assault then loading back on the transport, since there is no other way for an individual unit to move in both combat and non-combat movement under these circumstances.

OK so far?
Hey, Larry, could you review this when you get a chance and let me know if it's right. It kind of got lost in the shuffle. Thanks.
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GROGnads
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still there

Post by GROGnads » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:50 am

Yes Larry, please DO 'clarify', as I'd like to 'find out' just HOW 'loading & transporting & unloading & then LOADING again' is allowed? I'll even toss in 'at FULL capacity' in ALL instances! I would 'allow' THIS, since an 'empty Transport' is readily 'available' if this is NEAR to where it could be 'allowed'? I'll mention that the UNIT moving upon the just 'emptied' Transport SHOULD be doing 'such' during NON-Combat movement, or else it'd be considered a RETREAT or EVACUATION.

Now the 'idea' would BE that IF let's say '2', and perhaps even MORE, 'Amphib Assaults' take place with just '1' Transport, then it could 'begin' with it going like THIS:
A)'Bridges' with FULL capacity
B) then PICKS up at FULL capacity & moves '1' then UNLOADS
C)then 'Bridges' again
D) then PICKS up again & moves '1' and then UNLOADS
E) then 'Bridges' once more
F)then you could LOAD it yet some more!
So, how's many 'times' did this take place?
Add IN about 'Enemy Vessels present' and you can 'see' just how would this work OUT then?
"You had to 'GO'!?! Now we ALL have to 'GO'!" BIG Joe-"Kelly's Heroes"-the MOVIE

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