Italian National Advantages

We've talked about Advanced A&A... Now I'd like to hear your comments on what YOU envision a DELUXE A&A GAME to be. What would it look like.
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FleetAdmiral
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Italian National Advantages

Post by FleetAdmiral » Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:47 pm

Well, through much effort - especially considering that I have not seen, nor do I know what OOB National Advantages that will be given to Italy, and what new units (besides the cruiser) have been included: I have managed through coming these forums, Avalon Hill's and through my own ideas 18 National Advantages - I am assuming that the OOB ones will fill in the remainder, and I have taken into account possible overlaps.



=Regia Marina Italiana
[The Italian Royal Navy was amongst the five largest and most powerful in the world. Although it mostly conducted operations within the Mediterranean, it also operated as far away as the Pacific]. - Once per turn, one naval unit can be purchased and placed in Italy for 2 IPC less than original cost.

=15"/50 Model 1934 Guns
[These guns, fitted to the Littorio-class Battleships featured extremely high velocity and a range of 48,820 yards; a feat not matched by any other battleship guns ever put to sea]. - Your battleships fire twice in the first round of naval combat. The first firing is the normal 4 or less to hit, while the 2nd firing is a 3 or less to hit.

=Italian Cruisers
[Were designed with speed primarily in mind, which would allow them to either outrun an opponent that out gunned them or to quickly react to enemy movements]. - Your cruisers can join a naval battle if it is an adjacent sea zone. Conversely, if attacked they may retreat to an adjacent sea zone (assuming if they have not been hit). Additionally, your cruisers in the first round of combat can choose their target.

=Naval Potential
[Capitani Romani-class Light Cruiser, armed with 8 x 5.3 inch guns and 8 x 21 inch torpedo tubes, 41 knots capable; 12 ships of this class were ordered in late 1939. They were designed to counter France's Large Destroyers. At the start of the war, Italy possessed on of the world's largest and modern submarine fleets]. - The Italian player must spend 12 IPCs to complete and this (one) cruiser unit and (one) submarine unit. Deployment must be from Italy.

=Torpedo Doctrine
[Unlike the Japanese, German, and American navies who employed massed torpedo barrages, the Regia Marina instead employed limited strikes to allow for repeated attacks against a target. A great reason for this doctrine was Italy's low stockpiles of torpedoes]. - For every pair of destroyers, cruisers or destroyer and a cruiser, you may roll one additional die. This attack, which hits on a 2 or less only affects surface ships.

=Frogmen
[The Decima Flottiglia MAS was an Italian commando frogman unit of the Regina Marina]. - During Conduct Combat phase 1 infantry may attack 1 Allied surface naval unit that is adjacent to an Italian held territory containing the infantry. The Italian player specifies up to 2 targets before attacking. Infantry rolls normal attack and if successful the ship is destroyed. Failure is loss of infantry. This attack precedes normal combat in the sea zone.

=Bersaglieri and San Marco Regiments, and Folgore Parachute Brigades
[These elite formations of sharpshooters, marines and paratroopers proved their skill and tenacity time and again both in Europe and in Africa against Allied forces]. - The Italian player may designate 2 Infantry as this force, per battle. This unit attacks and defends on a 3 or less.

=MSVN
[Also known as Blackshirts, this all volunteer force was intended by Mussolini to be an elite assault force. However, they were resented by the Army and as such lacked leadership, armaments and training - and their combat performance is a testament to these shortcomings]. - After purchasing no less than 3 infantry, you receive 1 additional infantry free.

=Versatile Artillery
[Realizing that its artillery was outdated, development of a mountain artillery piece commenced in the early 1930s. The result was the Obice da 75/18 modello 34, which saw use in the mountain, field and assault gun roles]. - Your artillery are now move 2 and defend on a 3 or less in the first round of combat.

=Carro Pesante P26/40
[Armed with a 75mm gun and 2 Breda 8mm Model 38 Machine Gun, and taking design references from the T-34 in the form of sloping armour, this heavy tank (medium tank by international standards) was the best tank available to Italy in 1943. Like other Italian tanks however, rivets were still employed in its construction]. - By Turn 3, you may re-roll any misses (once) of up to 3 of your tanks.

=Balkan Support
[During WWII Hungary, Romania and in lesser amounts Bulgaria supported Axis forces with men and material]. - Once during the game, if the Axis control the Balkans, you may place 1 INF (infantry), 1 ART (artillery) and 1 ARM (tank) for there free; no earlier than turn 2.

=Natural Defence
[Italy is a mountainous nation, whose terrain if put to good use favours the defender. The Gustav is one such example]. - In the event that Italy is invaded, whether by sea or land, your infantry defend on a 3 or less for the first and second rounds of combat.

=Controlling Gibraltar
[Gibraltar, the British fortress that dominated access into the Western Mediterranean and Eastern Atlantic featured extensive harbour and aircraft facilities. Additionally, a number of naval artillery and anti-aircraft weapons were emplaced. Although German plans (Operation Felix) to seize control of the fortress were cancelled, throughout the war the Italians did launch periodic Frogman and air attacks. If the Axis could control this bastion, the Mediterranean Theatre would be much different...]. - At game start, the British player places 1 free Infantry on Gibraltar. If Italy gains control of Gibraltar, it may place a maximum of 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 AA Gun and 1 Fighter upon this territory. Forces on this territory are immune to shore bombardment. In the second round of combat, the AA Gun may defend like any other unit; hitting on a 1. The artillery once emplaced cannot be removed; and attacks twice on a 2 or less in the first round of naval combat only. Allied ships passing through the Straits of Gibraltar may be attacked by the artillery, and the Fighter if so chosen by the Italian player. Should the Allied ships be sailing in the combat phase to attack an Axis ship or fleet, damage sustained while passing through Gibraltar is carried over into that battle. Axis submarines adjacent to Gibraltar are immune to air attacks. Adjacent Axis ships or fleets, if attacked may call upon the Fighter based on Gibraltar.

=Kesselring
[Albert Kesselring, a Luftwaffe Field Marshall strove to keep the Afrika Korps supplied during its campaign, even as the Allied frustrated his efforts. In Sicily, Kesselring performed an amazing feat of managing to delay the Allied advance and evacuate an impressive number of men and materiel]. - For every Italian transport in the Mediterranean, the German player can move one land unit for free across a Mediterranean Sea Zone during the non-combat move phase.

=Pact of Steel
[While the Pact called for high level military and economic cooperation, many a time the Axis partners reacted to the actions or situations with the other. Nevertheless, there was a degree of cooperation between the signatories]. - Should Italy be invaded, Germany may send up to 4 units from any adjacent territory to assist Italy before the Conduct Combat Phase. Should France, Germany or the Balkans be invaded, Italy may send up to 3 units to assist before the Conduct Combat Phase. Italian units will be taken as casualties first.

=Military Industrial Cooperation
[Germany and Italy shared, provided or licensed to a degree various equipment and arms to each other ranging from German Mauser MG 151 cannons and Daimler-Benz aircraft engines to Italian Whitehead 17.7 and 19.7 inch torpedoes]. - Aircraft produced by Italy and Germany cost 1 IPC less, for up to 2 aircraft.

=Versatile Bombers
[Bombers such as the SM.79 and SM.84 and the CANT Z.1007 could either bombs or two 17.7 inch aerial torpedoes]. - Against naval targets, if you choose, in the first round of combat your bombers can make two attacks, hitting on a 3 or less. Attacks thereafter are as normal. If Heavy Bomber technology is achieved, you may make 3 attacks on the first turn, hitting on a 3 or less.

=Fiat G.55 Centauro
[Sporting a Daimler-Benz DB 605, a variant of this fighter was conceived as a torpedo fighter. This variant, the G.55 S would carry a single Whitehead Torpedo. Tests validated the capability and utility of the design, however, the war ended before it could be put into use]. - In the first round of naval combat, you may designate up to 2 fighters as Torpedo Fighters. They hit on a 4 or less. This increase attack factor is against surface ships only. However, if Allied aircraft are present, only one fighter may be designated as a Torpedo Fighter. This restriction may be overcome if the 2 Torpedo Fighters are escorted by at least 1 Fighter. This NA does not come into effect until Turn 3.
Ever had the IJN have 4 BBs, 4 fully loaded CVs, 2 DDs, 5 TRNs, and 1 Sub -VS- 3 US BBs, 3 fully loaded CVs, 3 TRNs, 11 DDs and 1 Sub?

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Post by Larry » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:54 pm

Comments noted... Wow.

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Post by adlertag » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:07 am

Ann.map dont have convoy zones or ENR because it must be kept Simple stupid KISS, but how about this long list with NA's, they dont complicate play ?

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Post by FleetAdmiral » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:10 pm

Not all the NAs would be used in a game. Each player chooses only 4 out of the list - this makes it much easier for each player to keep track of their NAs. I have tried 6 NAs before, but keeping track of them proved surprisingly difficult.
Ever had the IJN have 4 BBs, 4 fully loaded CVs, 2 DDs, 5 TRNs, and 1 Sub -VS- 3 US BBs, 3 fully loaded CVs, 3 TRNs, 11 DDs and 1 Sub?

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Post by FleetAdmiral » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:07 pm

Two more Italian NAs to bring selection of 20 in all. NOTE: I have not posted the full spelling/grammar correct list yet.


Regia Aeronautica
[As a separate branch the Royal Airforce controlled practically all Italian air power. Army and Navy liaison officers were assigned to allow inter-service coordination. It was stated that the Regia Marina Italiana did not need aircraft carriers as Italy itself was an unsinkable one]. - Italy starts the game with 1 Bomber added to its forces setup. Additionally, Italy and Sea Zone 14 are no longer considered separate territories. This, in effect increases the range of its aircraft operating from this area.

Tank Doctrine
[Italian tank units in Celere (fast/light motorized) divisions, Corazzata (armoured) divisions, and Independent tank units were organized for envelopment, infiltration, breakthrough, exploit, mobile reserve, recon and infantry support]. - You may use up to 2 of your tanks in a battle to support your infantry in a manner similar to your artillery. Your tanks still attack/defend on a 3 or less, however, your infantry will attack/defend on a 2 or less. This advantage is on a 1:1 ratio.
Ever had the IJN have 4 BBs, 4 fully loaded CVs, 2 DDs, 5 TRNs, and 1 Sub -VS- 3 US BBs, 3 fully loaded CVs, 3 TRNs, 11 DDs and 1 Sub?

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timerover51
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Post by timerover51 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:25 am

FleetAdmiral wrote:Two more Italian NAs to bring selection of 20 in all. NOTE: I have not posted the full spelling/grammar correct list yet.


Regia Aeronautica
[As a separate branch the Royal Airforce controlled practically all Italian air power. Army and Navy liaison officers were assigned to allow inter-service coordination. It was stated that the Regia Marina Italiana did not need aircraft carriers as Italy itself was an unsinkable one]. - Italy starts the game with 1 Bomber added to its forces setup. Additionally, Italy and Sea Zone 14 are no longer considered separate territories. This, in effect increases the range of its aircraft operating from this area.
If you put this in, then you should include the possibility of the Regia Aeronautica bombing its own ships, as happened on a fairly regular basis, and also the likelyhood that the requested air support fails to show up, as also happened on a regular basis. Also, assuming that Italy is an "unsinkable aircraft carrier", then eliminate the Aircraft Carrier from italy's build list. The Italians did not have any single-engine attack aircraft to put on a carrier, aside from Reggiane 2000 fighters that could double as fighter-bombers.
FleetAdmiral wrote: Tank Doctrine
[Italian tank units in Celere (fast/light motorized) divisions, Corazzata (armoured) divisions, and Independent tank units were organized for envelopment, infiltration, breakthrough, exploit, mobile reserve, recon and infantry support]. - You may use up to 2 of your tanks in a battle to support your infantry in a manner similar to your artillery. Your tanks still attack/defend on a 3 or less, however, your infantry will attack/defend on a 2 or less. This advantage is on a 1:1 ratio.
Considering that Italy's best tank was the M14/41, with thin armor, a two man turret, and a 47mm gun, saying that they were organized for that and actually doing it with the available equipment is two entirely different things. Throw in the fact that Italian infantry divisions had only 2 regiments of infantry rather than the three regiments of just about everyone else, that is giving Italian tanks units way too much capability. A more reasonable assessment would be having them attack and defend on 2, not 3 at all. If you do decide to do that, then what about the English infantry divisions, who by mid-war all had at least one infantry tank battalion permanently assigned to the division?

Basically, what you are doing with all of these National Advantages is changing the game from a strategic board game to a tactical miniatures war game. I suspect that I could fairly easily come up with 20 National Advantages for both the US and the UK. I doubt if any Axis player would like them however.

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Post by FleetAdmiral » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:52 pm

timerover51 wrote:Basically, what you are doing with all of these National Advantages is changing the game from a strategic board game to a tactical miniatures war game. I suspect that I could fairly easily come up with 20 National Advantages for both the US and the UK. I doubt if any Axis player would like them however.
Well, if you notice the some of the other Italian National Advantages I had to stretch history a bit as well.
=15"/50 Model 1934 Guns ->Inconsistent fire patterns due to ammo
=Torpedo Doctrine ->Was horribly, horribly bad. It made Japanese torpedo doctrine appear to be god-send (Japan's failure is that they tended to fire their torpedoes at ranges too far out; although their torps had the range to reach those targets - according to post-war evaluations the USN was not at all impressed with Japanese torpedoes or their firing equipment or any Japanese kit for that matter)
=Versatile Artillery ->Much of which was severely obsolete, similar to Japan.
=Versatile Bombers ->In most cases they only carried 1 torpedo.

========
3. Japan’s Fighter Answer ->These aircraft were produced too late and in too small number
6. Long Lance Torpedoes ->See above concerning Italian Torps
9. Shinano ->There were 2 Yamato classes yet built, but other hull was scrapped at 30% complete.
12. Zeroed-in Artillery ->No unified artillery command. US Army and Marines considered Japanese artillery to be insignificant due to a lack of unified command to allow concentrated fire - something other armies developed in the early years of the war.

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/bb2/vie ... 1&start=80
<-Link to 100 NAs (20 each for Britain, US, USSR, Germany and Japan)

The problem I had was that Japan more so than Italy had so many more disadvantages then advantages - thus certain stretches of history were required in order to obtain the required number of National Advantages. As for the United States, that national practically had no disadvantages.

The idea for the National Advantages is just a continuation of what was started in Axis and Allies: Revised. In addition to the 2 starting scenarios and the use of National Objectives, reply value is increased due to even more variations introduced.
Ever had the IJN have 4 BBs, 4 fully loaded CVs, 2 DDs, 5 TRNs, and 1 Sub -VS- 3 US BBs, 3 fully loaded CVs, 3 TRNs, 11 DDs and 1 Sub?

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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:51 pm

Whats important about NA is that they help balance the game. They draw from historical ideas and embellish them to give flavor. They are not meant to make the game more realistic, but in some ways that is an effect somewhat even if it was not intended. It IS not meant to be scrutinized as "this is not the way X operated based on my study of military documents that i discovered in Hitlers safe while on vacation" Its a freeking game that somebody created that didn't balance out because thats what games must have to be fun to play as they provide an EQUAL CHANCE FOR EACH SIDE TO WIN. Thats the most important rule in a game.

my god give it a rest.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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