The Italians

We've talked about Advanced A&A... Now I'd like to hear your comments on what YOU envision a DELUXE A&A GAME to be. What would it look like.
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Post by Nuclear » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:35 pm

Okay ways to make it so that it works:
1. Japan cannot attack the USSR until Moscow is taken. Represents the non-agression pact between the two. Since USSR does not have to defend the East, it can focus all of its power and attention on Germany.
2. Divide Africa up more. It is the world's second largest continent. Italy would fight over Africa, otherwise the economic loss would be too great.

China could just be a power under US control. China could make the game more interesting in Asia. As it is now, the Japan player just keeps expanding without limits.
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Post by Chairman » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:18 pm

Ok, that's a good solution that I can handle.

Italy as an independant nation and China as satellite of the US like in AAP.

On Africa, I totally agree. The same should happen to India: the second most populous nation on earth and the Crown Jewel of the British Empire is worth more than a puny 1 territory and 3 measly IPC's.

Japan having to wait until Moscow is taken seems awful long: maybe until one of three major Russian cities is taken (Moscow, Leningrad OR Stalingrad).


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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:13 am

On Africa, I totally agree. The same should happen to India: the second most populous nation on earth and the Crown Jewel of the British Empire is worth more than a puny 1 territory and 3 measly IPC's.
And here is the problem. China is at 4 and India must be much less than China which has been basically at war since 1931 with Japan. Every time you correct India which basically did nothing but add a portion of infantry to the British and wasn't directly in the war until Japan attacked Impahl in 1944 to preempt a British offensive in Burma. So basically its a side show at best. Also, you cant add too many bucks to them because then everything else will have to go up accordingly and the piece density will change. The ratio of British power to Japanese and German must be in check or then your basically into adding more to the axis. To make a long story short India is worthless... let it stay that way.

Id add more income to islands to make the island hopping campaign more realistic instead of wasting income allocations of a useless place like India. Japans idea of victory didn't even depend on taking India anyway... it was to rid Asia of the influence of European and western power influence and establish outposts of impregnable islands to anchor its empire in Asia.
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Post by Hobbes77 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:55 am

I'll get back to one point I made on my observations concerning Italy: time. If you add China won't that make the game too long?

Let's see, if you assume 5 minutes to complete each country's round, then you have on 4th edition: 5 x 5 = 25. Imagining a minimum of 6 turns to complete a game that makes it 2 and a half hours long. And most games will take more than this.

Add Italy and China and each turn lasts 35 minutes, but on this case I'd raise the minimum necessary to finish a game to 8 (unless the VC system is designed to deal with this). So now each game lasts more than 4 and a half hours, and that if it sticks to the 8 round minimum.

Wouldn't it be a little too much?

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Post by Chairman » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

I don't see what's abnormal about a 4 hour game. From my experience, 4 hours would be considered a short game. One game of AAE that we played took us IIRC a total of about ~12 hours. That's only AAE. So I don't see why "long" games (more than 4 hours) are so bad. If people are only taking 2-3 hours to play AAR, they must be zooming through their turns, which I can't imagine playing that fast. :shock:

IL: making India at least 2 territories and 4 IPC's is not that bad and in my opinion the bare minimum. Besides, India didn't just sit there until '44. Due to the distance to the UK around the Cape, India was forced to step in and provide the men, weapons and equipment for the African, Egyptian, Middle Eastern and South East Asian armies. India had a lot of local industrial facilities, that were at least half of the UK's; especially if you include all of the raw materials that they provided.


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Post by Grand Admiral T » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:57 am

I think that adding Italy to the Axis and Allies equation, would heavily detract from the game.

Most people consider Russia the least amount of fun to play. Why? Probably because it is the only power that has very limited options in what it can do. It tends to has a single objective- survive the German onslaught. Adding Italy would make THREE powers with single objectives- Germany (kill Russia), Russia (survive), and Italy (take the Mid East/Africa). A game with so many powers with single objectives would be BORING. Games would become repetitive and predictable. To me, the best thing about A&A is the freedom it gives you in deciding how you want to bring about victory for your side.

For example, a German player may choose to completely ignore Africa and focus his efforts elsewhere, or perhaps he may decide to hurl mounds of units at the continent. An Italian player would have no real choice but to go after Africa unless he wanted to contribute to the attack on Russia (in which case Italy would simply be going along with the German players plan. Boring!).

I think the only version of A&A that could handle having Italy included, would be an expanded and revised A&A E.

Larry, please keep the number of nations as it is. However, I like the idea of having a stronger China controlled by the American player, modelled perhaps off of the China in A&AP. It would be nice to see China as a difficult prize to take for the Japanese (much like the real war), rather than two territories that can be overrun rather easily.

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Post by Admiral_Thrawn » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:17 pm

The deluxe version should come with multiple rule sets like an Eagle game. The game should come with everything to play AAR with a few changes but, also come with a more advanced rule set with separate powers of Italy and China. Axis and Allies Europe should surely have Italy as a Separate power. I can only hope for a revised version of AAE and AAP.
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