The Italians

We've talked about Advanced A&A... Now I'd like to hear your comments on what YOU envision a DELUXE A&A GAME to be. What would it look like.
templeton
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Post by templeton » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:22 am

Flashman wrote: China cannot be treated in the same way as it didn't have the resourses to do anything more than raise infantry units.
But Italy never came close to matching the Germans... they are arguably more of a Satelite than china, because China was able to mobile so many more men than Italy.

Italy never built proper tanks, their aircraft were largely out-dated and obsolete, and the only potent part of their military was the Navy.

I can't see how Italy can be made an interesting player country, which a-historically distorting their power. Italy only ever played second fiddle to Germany after 1942, which is when the game starts.

BUT - I would love to see some Italian peices introduced for the German to have fun with.

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Flashman
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Post by Flashman » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:13 pm

Well some Italian aircraft were pretty close to the other powers. Admittedly their tanks were obsolete, but those of Japan were nothing very special. Maybe if the war hade gone better for them the Italian would have produced something better.
The point is their manufacturing industry had the capability of producing major war weapons; that of China simply did not exist.

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Imperious leader
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Post by Imperious leader » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:56 pm

Italy was a much more well rounded power than China. Italy had a modern navy and china could not even build a cruiser. Italy had its own armor and airborne while China had to either borrow artillery from friends or jump off a mountain or a bridge if they wanted to go airborne.

China had no real tanks or anything mechanized. Chinese infantry didn't even wear the same uniforms. They were a home grown armed force "people power" and in fact china was two distinct armies ( national and communist).
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Dagon81
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Post by Dagon81 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:29 pm

This is what I found about Chinese Army in WWII:

"Nonetheless, some 80,000 troops, in eight divisions, were trained to German standards and formed the elite of Chiang's army..."

"German-trained divisions were on par in terms of manpower with a western or Japanese division... From the moment German M35 helmets (standard issue for the Wehrmacht until late in the European theatre) rolled off the production lines in 1935, and until 1936, the NRA imported 315,000 of these helmets, each with the 12-star emblem of the ROC on the sides. Other helmets include the Adrian helmet, Brodie helmet and later M1 helmet."

"However, for most of the German-trained divisions, the standard firearms were German-made 7.92 mm Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98k. However for those Chinese regular division their standard rifle are type 88 (copy of Gewehr 88 ) and Chiang Kai-Shek rifle (copy of Mauser Standard Modell)."

"...Chiang's army received $250 million worth of tanks, trucks, and aircraft from the Soviet Union in 1938, plus some British and French military supplies. Nevertheless, by the summer of 1939 Japan controlled most of northeastern China and all major coastal seaports, except for the British Crown Colony at Hong Kong. In short, China was isolated except for supplies moving from the west along the so-called Burma Road or through French Indochina."

"President Roosevelt approved $25 million in military aid to China on 19 December 1940, permitting the Chinese to purchase one hundred P 40 pursuit aircraft... about one hundred U.S. civilian volunteers to fly the one hundred recently purchased P-40s. These "Flying Tigers" began arriving in Burma in late 1941..."

"The United States confronted two fundamental challenges in the China theater. The first challenge was political...some Chinese were supporters of the Nationalist Kuomintang government ... and some supported the Communists... The second challenge in the China theater was logistical. the U.S. military could not sustain the logistics effort required to build a modern Chinese army. Without sufficient arms, ammunition, and equipment, let alone doctrine and leadership training, the Chinese Nationalist Army was incapable of driving out the Japanese invaders. ...The China theater was also the most remote from the United States. American supplies and equipment had to endure long sea passages to India for transshipment to China, primarily by airlift. But transports bringing supplies to China had to fly over the Himalayas..."

"Overall, the Nationalist Army impressed most Western military observers as more reminiscent of a nineteenth- than a twentieth-century army."

in China Defensive
http://www.army.mil/CMH/brochures/72-38/72-38.HTM

also:
China Offensive
http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/chinoff/chinoff.htm

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Flashman
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Post by Flashman » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:49 pm

[quote="Imperious leader"]Italy was a much more well rounded power than China. Italy had a modern navy and china could not even build a cruiser. Italy had its own armor and airborne while China had to either borrow artillery from friends or jump off a mountain or a bridge if they wanted to go airborne.
quote]

Chinese National Advantage: Lemming attack!

10,000 Chinese infantry simultaneously jump off a mountain. On a roll of 1-2 this causes a massive earthquake radiating outwards driving the Japanese invaders into the sea!

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Post by Imperious leader » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:57 pm

China offensive is really suspect. Japan in May-September 1945 was nearly defeated and pulled her forces back to concentrate on the defense of Japan.

The Chinese conducted their first offensive of the war and still we get:
China's numerical advantage had been offset by the superior equipment and training of the Japanese. Such was still the case.
This still proves the analogy that the Chinese effort was akin to those 500 Spanish conquistadors defeating the Aztec nation of 1.2 million. Your basically dealing with hordes of people untrained in modern combat.

China had a 5 million man army in 1945 and it was still held in check by a vastly depleted Japanese force of l armored division, 25 infantry divisions, and 22 independent brigades 13,000 x26 and 5,600 x 22 = 461,200 men against 5,000,000. Thats more pathetic than anything the Italians failed to do by huge margins.

further China was basically "hand me downs" and didn't produce a single major piece of equipment.. either land, sea, and air. I cant see how they are in the same ballgame with Italy.

Italy fought in Africa and in Eastern Europe and even independently attacked Greece and Ethiopia. China didn't do anything w/o guidance and material from allies. Heck id even have Finland before China.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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Flashman
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Post by Flashman » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:53 pm

Also remember that Gemany defeated Norway, Denmark, Britain, France, Belgium and the Netherlands in the Spring '40 campaign despite smaller numbers and inferior equipment to France alone.

Leadership and motivation are crucial in war.

This is not reflected in traditional A&A because it begins with all out war already underway.

But in scenarios like WAW they have to invent contrived rules to reflect the German attack on France, and the Japanese "surprise attacks" against unprepared defenders.

Hence the railroaded rules of WAW and Struggle which so unrealistically restrict players freedom of action in order to create a recognisable WWII conflict.

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Post by Mimmo » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:45 am

templeton wrote:
But Italy never came close to matching the Germans... they are arguably more of a Satelite than china, because China was able to mobile so many more men than Italy.
I cannot agree because Italy starts it own aggressive war against France and Great Britain looking for some strategic objective that should not discussed in this topic.
At the beginning of WWII – after 20 years of Fascist Government – Italy was an industrial Power (of course not at the same level of Germany or U.K.) and China was in very depressed conditions. The only Chinese advantage was that they have since centuries and centuries millions and millions of men source.
Translate these historical condition into the game I think that Italy should have more importance then China.
templeton wrote: Italy never built proper tanks, their aircraft were largely out-dated and obsolete, and the only potent part of their military was the Navy.
Our medium tank Carro P40 can be compared with the M4 Sherman.
Carro P40 - weight: 24 t.; main gun: 75 mm, speed 42 Km/h, aut. 275 Km.
M4 Sherman - weight: 28 t.; main gun: 75 mm, speed 40 Km/h, aut. 160 Km
And - for example - our latest fighters "Series 5" (Reggiane Re.2005, Macchi M.C.205 and Fiat G.55) have nothing to envy from the various Spitfire or Bf 109, etc...
Of course the main problem was the our industry cannot produce weapons in a large number in order to support the war in every front where we were involved.
templeton wrote: I can't see how Italy can be made an interesting player country, which a-historically distorting their power. Italy only ever played second fiddle to Germany after 1942, which is when the game starts.
Yes, Italy can be interesting player in the case the game will start in the 1941 (as in my home made version) where we still have our overseas territories.
I can only see Italy as active Powers in some New Edition Deluxe version or Europe Deluxe viersion (if any) as we can already see the Chinese in Pacific.
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