Submarine - Strikes: Sub Hunting

[elbowmaster]

Submarines
(All die rolls are based on d12's)

Sub Hunting: Surface ships can attack subs even if the sub(s) have not fired first. This can occur when a taskforce moves into a sea zone where the sub(s) already is. The surface ship controlling player must ask the sub player if he intends to attack or not. If the sub does not want to attack the surface ships can begin a sub hunt anyway. The sub can be attacked if a successful "find" die is rolled. However a lower "find" number is required in order to locate the non-attacking sub(s). To find a sub that has not attacked, you must roll a 1 or 2. Normally a sub can be located by rolling a 4 or less.

[Imperious leader]

This is great as it stands, But Id not allow search with planes alone.. they have to have at least one ship to force the issue of naval search and subsequent action. I cant see bombers especially droping high level bombs on underwater subs and having any sucess hiting something thats evading. They were used as spotters for surface ships. So allow planes to roll for search for sure, and perhaps not for the combat unless a ship is present.

No matter what no more than ONE round of this form of combat. Subs can submerge, or retreat into an empty sea zone?

[Larry]

Comments noted
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[Gen. Alexander Patch]

I agree that Bombers can't attack subs. Dive-bombers should be able to, though. And you're right, planes couldn't search alone. One suggestion: players should be able to upgraded their ships with ASDIIC/SONAR for easier sub-hunting (increase ships' search roll for example).

Also, it is the sub's owner's choice if he/she wants to submerge the submarine. The sub still can't fire back.

[Imperious leader]

I agree planes should be able after they gain the tech to either search or attack subs under ASW. Subs should not be able to hit any air targets.

[templeton]

Actually, bombers were just as effective if not more so...

Took a German boat about 30 seconds to dive, which was usually enough time for a plane to make an attack run.


For info;

264 U-boats were lost to ships
250 were lost to air
37 lost to a combination of air and ship
43 lost due to air raids on ports
35 lost due to mines

http://uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm

Now if you consider that it was only latter in the war that planes had sufficent coverage, they manged to inflict almost as many hits as ships in about half the time.

I'm trying to find loss by year data, but long-range bombers were a greater threat to subs than ships - becuase subs could more easily evade ships than they could planes.

[Imperious leader]

Yes but that was after technology and ASW tactics came into their own. Before that Bombers were only for reconnaissance to help u-boats locate potential convoys and acted as spotters.

In fact these were not "bombers" but dedicated long range transport planes of sorts outfitted with not bombs but a cannon in front.

Level bombers never once sunk a submarine unless it was sitting in a harbor

Latter after specific fighters were outfitted and trained for ASW did these planes participate in actual sub hunting missions with other ASW surface units or on their own as coastal patrol.

[templeton]

Level bombers never once sunk a submarine unless it was sitting in a harbor

Coastal command used American B-17s and B-24's to great effect... depends how we interpret the air peice.

Bombers I assumed to be a mix of heavy and medium bombers, hence the flexibility of tactical and strategic use.

The piece is too powerful - so I agree that in the game terms, it's a bit much to send a bomber out - BUT, then that bomber is not available for other operations.


I think the beauty of Axis and Allies is that, although simplistic, it captures most elements of the war in quite an elegant way.