ATTACK AND DEFENSE NUMBERS: Land Based

Thanks for your input todate. Here is a collection of my thinking at this point. Please feel free to participate in this on going discussion. Your contributions are appreciated. Tell your A&A friends about this so they have a chance to voice what they want in A-A&A. I'll update the the original posting as changes and new ideas are adopted or contemplated.
NSDQ2004
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Post by NSDQ2004 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:46 pm

On the use of bombers

Quote from Stephen E. Ambrose, “Citizen Soldier”
Operation Cobra:
“Bradley decided he could use the St.-Lo-Periers road as a marker for the strategic air forces and lay a carpet of bombs on Panzer Lehr by having the bombers fly parallel to the road-a land mark they couldn’t miss, Bradley reasoned. The area to be obliterated was six kilometers long (running along the road) and two kilometers south of the road. Massed artillery would come after the bombardment, followed by a combined tank-infantry assault three divisions strong.

If I may throw in my two cents on the use of bombers! Bomber pilots on D-Day dropped their pay load too late in fear of hitting their own men. They could not see the battle field do to the smoke from the naval bombardment. In Operation Cobra, bombers were used in close support of land combat. Other than a few friendly casualties using the bombers ended up being a major contributor to the operation.

I feel that bombers should have their own combat phase prior to any land and/or sea combat phase. In this phase bombers can either engage in a strategic bombing run, naval support bombardment or land support bombardment. Para drops will be used in the other combat movement phase.

In support of ground combat the bombers will go in first just as in Operation Cobra. They will drop their payload (one shot per bomber) then they are finished. On the defenders side, only artillery or anti-air can fire back at the bombers. Most people wouldn’t gamble their expensive bombers if tank and infantry could fire back at them. Any way bombers would be flying too high for riflemen and tanks to shoot at them. Bombers drop their load, the artillery and anti-air fire back and then the ground forces move in on the next phase.

Hope this helps!
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Sabre Von Manteuffel
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Post by Sabre Von Manteuffel » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:26 pm

NSDQ, this idea has kind of been covered, but not ala Bombers. IMO bombers should be left in the game for strategic bombing, or LOC bombing if we're looking to add RR and oilfields and whatnot.

But you could read some differing concepts here on the Ftr/mini-bomber front line "strafe" here:

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/ ... sc&start=0


--IL and Krieghund, didn't IL and Moody and I (more the previous two) go about 7 pages of posts on this USSR v. German thing back in SEP/OCT? :lol:

But, as I said once before, as a "gesture of goodwill" to a buddy of mine, we tried a game where USSR infantry costs 1 IPC....but they were reduced to .5 on Attk (had to use 2 INF to attack) and 1 on Def. The point he was trying to make was that w/ all the USSR tanks and mass-production, an "8 INF stack standard" purchase for USSR wasn't very accurate, so if he could buy 5 INF, he was only spending 5 IPC, and therefore had 19 more to buy ARM and FTRS or ARTY. And no he couldn't buy "24" INF, because MOscow and Cauc (in Revised) were total of 12 units...... We only had a chance to play one and half games this way, but I tell you it was VERY interesting!!

and not completely lopsided as one might think.

--just another random thought on another day of no sleep from your friendly neighborhood...

-Sabre
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English, thank an American Veteran!

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Post by Imperious leader » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:45 pm

Yes we did... and our combat system will address ALL the things that needed a fix from the previous axis and allies versions. Don't worry all will be happy.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Sabre Von Manteuffel
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Location: Rusafa-(East) Baghdad, Iraq

Post by Sabre Von Manteuffel » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:18 pm

Roger, IL....just didn't want to see the pages of historical facts again! :lol: Like the ones you will read below!! :wink:

but since you and Moody are paired up on the new mission, I guess you two can PM all the facts you want....

So, NSDQ,

I was just thinking about my other post, and remembered I have the U.S. Army's Official "U.S. Army in World War II" Center of Military History books here in my office....

Book of series titled: European Theater of Operations, Breakout and Pursuit, page 189 "Two major deficiencies of the air bombardment launched earlier at Caen were to be corrected for Goodwood [the British operation that "pre-launched" Cobra by 2 days]. Only fighter-bombers were to attack in the zone where armored divisions were to make the main effort, and thus the extensive catering that had slowed armor at Caen would be avoided."

Page 191..."almost 400 medium and fighter-bombers of the U.S. Ninth Air Force dropped more than 8,000 tons of bombs to open a path for the British ground forces...."

Also, Bradley insisted that only Light Bombs be used because the American ground troops "safe zone" following on the tail of the air bombardment was 1000-1500 yards! Although the bombardment used all the heavy bombers of 8th US Air Force and all medium- and fighter-bombers of the Ninth, those that flew missions in direct support of the trailing divisions were fighter-bombers...the heavies were used to strike bridges and LOCs that were outside supporting artillery range....

The actual "carpet-bombing" of the operation was 350 FBs strafing for 20 minutes (to knock out AA before the heavies came); then 1800 HB came in for an hour long attack, and then as the ground troops began to roll forward, the FB returned for another 20 minutes and then the MB (396 of them) hit the rectangle of Bradley's kill-box for 45 minutes....2500 planes bombed a 6 square mile area for 2.5 hours...

With the American Ground Force front .75 miles away, the Air force did drop their loads on U.S. forces on more than one run... one example (pg 236) 111 American troops killed North of Periers-St. Lo highway when Frag and HE rounds from 35 HB and 42 MB dropped in American lines---one of the 111, Army Ground Forces Commander LTG McNair was killed!

In all, over 900 U.S. fratricide casualities were sustained, and General Eisenhower "resolved that he would never again use heavy bombers in a tactical role." Yes, he changed his mind, but not immediately.

My point in all this is that Larry seemed pretty adamant that there would remain only two types of aircraft: Fighters and Bombers, and a plane is a plane is a plane....so he intends for their use to be the more typical by pice...Bombers launch strategic type operations and fighters support the ground troops.

Although, it was through Cobra that the technique known as "Armored Column Cover" was born, it won't be through HGD that this is added to the game. :lol:
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English, thank an American Veteran!

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