Retreats

Thanks for your input todate. Here is a collection of my thinking at this point. Please feel free to participate in this on going discussion. Your contributions are appreciated. Tell your A&A friends about this so they have a chance to voice what they want in A-A&A. I'll update the the original posting as changes and new ideas are adopted or contemplated.
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Post by Guerrilla Guy » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:46 pm

Beast1313131 wrote:I agree with defensive retreats but there needs to be a way to tell if it is a successful defensive withdrawal.
but this might just add another die roll that complicates it...
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Post by Imperious leader » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:58 pm

yes it would and Larry dont like this sort of thing.. Really i dont like getting shot at as defenders as im running away especially in a strategic level wargame, but that too was decided. So i go with flow.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

dezrtfish
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Post by dezrtfish » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:48 pm

Imperious leader wrote:This rule is exactly what is in a game im working on (not mine), In this example either side can retreat fully or partially, while if the defender retreats fully then the attacker gets a free roll . The defender does not get this if the attacker retreats. Partial retreats are possible but the extra hits in the final combat roll may be applied to the retreating units. Example: defender leaves 4 infantry but retreats a tank and 2 artillery pieces. Attacker rolls in the next combat round and gets 5 hits , so the defender loses the 4 infantry, plus one of the defending units. In sea battles ships just retreat ( no final shots). If planes are dispatched from adjacent territories on the first round of combat to provide defensive ground support, then they arrive on round two. All air hits are applied to air units before land units take a hit. Bombers used in defensive air support use their defence factor. If units retreat after a bad roll , the dispatched air units simply turn back to base rather then get stuck in a lost battle.
I think this is perfect.

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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:53 pm

their are some clear contradictions from this old post and my new proposal regarding the conduct of both advanced naval combat and advanced land combat ( both under 2nd stage advanced a/a) . let me know what you think. thanks. Of course some of the retreat rules can apply as posted.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

dezrtfish
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Post by dezrtfish » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:01 pm

Well, I think with Naval retreat there should be some chance that the retreater is unable to disengage. If the Non retreater wants to press the attack the retreater would have to make a break for it or leave a screening force.

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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:04 pm

Keeping in mind these new submarine rules the following is what i consider the next logical step on dealing with naval combat:

Naval ships can "pass" thru enemy controlled sea zones, however when you do send ships thru these sea zones naval interception is possible. Each side rolls one d12 with a "sighting" on a roll of 4 if just ships, 5 if you have planes in the zone(from a CV), and 6 if you have both planes and ships. One round of naval interception combat will occur in the sea zone if the passing ships are sighted.

If the Attacking ships choose to attack an enemy fleet in ANY sea zone they too have to roll for "sighting" with the 4,5,6, system as explained above. In fact both sides roll for sighting the other so it would be possible for the defending side to sight the attackers FIRST and launch air attacks before the attacker.To explain better consider:

attacker rolls for sighting enemy fleet and misses, Defending does the same and sights the attacker, so it can be the first to launch air attacks . The player who failed to roll for "sighting" is now the defender and can only place planes for CAP duty only after one round of air to surface combat occurs.

Combat can be of any duration, except that retreats can be exercised by either side at any time after at least one round. Planes from adjacent land territories can assist in the defense of the naval units being attacked starting from the first round of naval combat.

If either side has submarines then this combat is handled seperatly as per the sub rules that larry came up with.

The use of planes in each naval combat round is limited ONLY to planes that have "sighted " an enemy fleet and are handled differently as follows:

Each plane that is launched from carriers (CV) can participate for limited rounds only as below:

1) IN the first round they can consist of planes flying CAP (combat ar patrol- which is to say defending the fleet ships from other fighters)

If they choose this option then any fighters that were sent over from the enemy for the purpose of sinking ships, must now engage THIS CAP in air combat for one round of air combat. If they fail to destroy your planes that were serving as CAP during that combat round, then they have to return to their carrier to reload, refuel for one complete combat round before another attempt can be made. Consequently the "defending " CAP can only serve one turn of duty as well. The second round they have to also rearm and reload themselves. Now concludes a combat round. The side that failed to "sight" may now roll once again (and every new combat round) untill both have achieved "sighting". After the point when both sides have achieved sighting can ship to ship combat commence. a group of warships that have NOT sighted the enemy cannot launch any planes for duty untill the second combat round. And Can ONLY launch planes for CAP duty ( not attacking enemy ships).

Only when BOTH have "sighted" can full functions of Air or surface naval actions will be possible. Follow combat rules and retreat rules.

2) the second action is to launch planes to attack ships. NOTE: This duty can only come to a fleet that has sighted the enemy ships.These planes then engage enemy ships for one round of combat.These planes following the round must return to their carriers to perform refueling/ rearm duty for a complete combat round before their use in further actions.

Remember : you have to first destroy the enemys CAP in order to fight their ships.If the CAP is destroyed (that first round) then the defending ships can be targeted by these planes for one free round as follows:

Each plane now rolls its normal combat value and scores hits on ships of its own choosing, while EVERY defending ship ( even ones that were not chosen as targets) each roll one die to represent its anti-air ability which can be say about a 3 or a 4 on a d12 ( your not using its defence factor). The targeted ships roll first and their hits go against the planes first. Second, The planes that are left against the targeted ships roll their attacks and they are applied immediatly ( those ships are sunk) Then the SURVIVING ships that were not targeted roll for anti-air and those planes take hits..

Remember carriers and Battleships take 2 hits, while other units take one hit. Planes on carriers that were in refueling, or rearming are lost with the carrier if the carrier takes both hits on the same round. Otherwise if the carrier takes one hit then the planes can still launch and conduct combat for one round ,but must find another place to land within 2 sea zones away or they too are lost.

Remember also that planes can only move 2 spaces for attacking or retreating.

Retreats: Similiar to land retreats the defending side that wishes to disengage can do so in full or part, but the attacker gets one free shot round . Some ships can be left around to obsorb hits. Example: 1 bb, 2 ca, and 2 dd are defenders that decide to retreat. The attacker has 4 ships left and will roll four dice . The defender retreats 3 out of his 5 ship force so that at least two ships can fire at the attackers. The attacker rolls 3 hits, and the defender rolls two hits (both from the screening force). The defender loses the screening force and the additional hit is from the retreating defending group (their choice). The attacker takes two hits, which were targeted by the defender ( so the hits go to those engaged units).

The result of these rules have many effects. Now a Midway scenario is possible with flaming carriers . Now a Bismarck ship can venture out of the previous "Blockade" in the atlantic and pass undetected and sink convoys and the British "five minute Ships" all in a single day.

Protection of Ports:
All ships in port take DOUBLE HITS to sink the ship ( or you can allow these sunk ships to be rebuilt with some die roll or chart depending on what ship was damaged). Also no naval combat ( we mean ship to ship here) can occur against ships in port. Also sighting rolls will still be necessary except the benifit will be for giving defending planes warning so they can take to the air on CAP patrol. If they fail to sight , then they are grounded untill at least one round of combat against defenseless ships occurs.

Try to playtest these rules and see what you think. They are a hybrid of my own advanced naval combat rules.

This seems complicated , but if you try it it takes a few seconds to master. I agree thats its rather wordy like my typical posts are. sorry
Last edited by Imperious leader on Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

dezrtfish
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Post by dezrtfish » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:15 pm

I like it.

Definately advanced though.

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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:19 pm

I wish it was easier to explain, but my form of explaining of how it works may be the problem as well.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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