Infantry Stacking

Thanks for your input todate. Here is a collection of my thinking at this point. Please feel free to participate in this on going discussion. Your contributions are appreciated. Tell your A&A friends about this so they have a chance to voice what they want in A-A&A. I'll update the the original posting as changes and new ideas are adopted or contemplated.
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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:27 am

EACH UNIT MUST HAVE A SPECIAL PURPOSE OR ABILITY

Infantry- only infantry can occupie territories.
Mech. infantry. Same as above with spinning wheels.

Artillery-
1. Roll dice in opening fire step (barrage)
or
2.Each artillery hit take out 2 infantry casualties or 1 other type.

Tanks-
1. Can target other tanks.
or
2.Blitz-krieg, roll 8 or less for first round of combat, 6 or less for next rounds.
or
3.Panzer-blitz, can take combat in first territory, then move to next territory and second combat.
or
4.BreakeThrough. Can roll a extra bonus dice if first roll was successful.

Fighters-are free to pick their targets.
+ CAP, escort/intercepting during SBR

Bombers- SBR +
1. Roll dice in opening fire step.
or
2. Each hit take out 2 infantry casualties or 1 other type.

Blockhouse- Defence value only.
1.May target amphibious assaulting ships in adjacent sea-zone.
or
2.Each hit take out 2 infantry casualties or 1 other type.
or
3.Take 2 hits in a row.

Submarines- Do ENR + On station
Trannies- convoy land units.
Destroyers- hunt submarines, screen fleets/capital ships
Cruisers- same as above, only more expansive.
Carriers- carry fighters
Battleships- roll dice in opening fire step + take 2 hits

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:01 pm

END INFANTRY STACKING.

Based on D12

Infantry att. on 2 / def on 4
Artillery att. on 4 / def on 6
Tanks att. on 8 / def on 6

Fighters att on 4 /def on 6-- may target other aircrafts.
Bombers att on 6 /def on 2--Roll dice in opening fire step

New cost
Inf 3 ipc
Art 5 ipc
Tanks 10 ipc
Fighter 10 ipc
Bomb 15 ipc

Guerrilla Guy
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Post by Guerrilla Guy » Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:01 pm

In your system do Art still provide Inf Support?

Also to encourage Armor purchase I would consider making them have a direct battle advantage like first cycle opening fire for both Attack and Defense...

GG
"We're airborne. We’re supposed to be surrounded."

Dick Winters to 2nd Lt. George Rice after being told that the 101st Airborne would be surrounded at Bastogne

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Imperious leader
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Post by Imperious leader » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:00 pm

Infantry att. on 2 / def on 4
Artillery att. on 4 / def on 6
Tanks att. on 8 / def on 6

Fighters att on 4 /def on 6-- may target other aircrafts.
Bombers att on 6 /def on 2--Roll dice in opening fire step

New cost
Inf 3 ipc
Art 5 ipc
Tanks 10 ipc
Fighter 10 ipc
Bomb 15 ipc
This idea does not end infantry stacking as in every case all your units have favored defensive characteristics.In fact this will result in a greater dependence on buying only infantry, since tanks cost way too much. I dont know why you come up with this as any solution . In addition tanks are mobile and are more heavilly armored than artillery and yet your artillery units have the same defensive attributes.

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Post by Imperious leader » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:28 pm

Infantry:
Russia - 2/4/3
Germany - 3/4/3
UK - 3/3/4
Japan - 3/3/3
US - 4/3/4
Italy - 3/3/4

Mechanized infantry: moves 2
Russia - 3/4/4
Germany - 4/5/5
UK - 4/4/5
Japan -4/4/4
US - 4/4/4
Italy - 3/4/5

Artillery: moves 1
Russia - 5/4/5
Germany - 5/5/5
UK - 4/4/6
Japan - 4/5/5
US - 5/4/5
Italy - 4/4/7


Armor: moves 2
Russia -6/6/7
Germany - 7/7/7
UK -5/5/8
Japan - 5/5/7
USA-6/5/6
Italy - 5/5/8

Fighters:
Russia - 6/7/12/4
Germany - 7/8/11/4
UK - 7/9/10/4
Japan - 7/7/9/4
US - 7/8/9/4
Italy - 6/7/12/4


Bombers:
Russia -7/2/16/6
Germany - 9/3/15/6
UK - 8/3/15/6
Japan -8/3/15/6
US - 9/4/14/6
Italy -7/2/17/6


Battleships: possible preemtive shot, two hits
Russia - 7/6/22/2
Germany - 9/8/20/2
UK - 8/8/17/2
Japan - 9/9/18/2
US - 8/9/18/2
Italy - 7/8/20/2

Cruisers:
Russia - 5/5/14
Germany - 6/6/12
UK -6/5/10
Japan - 6/6/10
US -6/5/10
Italy -5/5/12


Destroyers:
Russia -2/3/7/3
Germany - 3/4/6/3
UK -3/3/6/3
Japan - 3/3/5/3
US - 3/3/5/3
Italy - 3/2/6/3


Carriers: 2 planes cap, two hits
Russia - 2/4/20
Germany - 2/5/18/2
UK - 2/6/17
Japan - 2/7/15 (possible 3 plane capacity)
US - 3/7/14 (possible 3 plane capacity)
Italy - 2/5/18



Submarines:
Russia -4/3/9
Germany - 5/4/8
UK - 4/4/8
Japan - 4/4/8
US - 4/4/7
Italy - 4/3/8


Transports:
Russia -0/1/9
Germany - 0/1/8
UK - 0/1/7
Japan - 0/1/7
US - 0/1/6
Italy - 0/1/8


Possible heavy artillery/ anti- tank gun (use old a/a/ gun)
Russia -6/5/6
Germany - 6/6/6
UK - 6/6/9
Japan - 6/6/7
US - 6/6/7
Italy -6/6/8

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:49 am

Herr Imperious.
Your numbers are the worst case of bogging down a game that I have ever witnessed. Your infantry proposal are lifted from Dons essay that want infantry to attack on 1 and defend on 1.
http://p081.ezboard.com/faxisandalliese ... ID=9.topic

But this is too ahistoric, both infantry and artillery are stronger in defence, because terrain favour defenders. (Opposit to gun duells in naval combat, but in this case your numbers favour defending ships. Why?)

From Franco-Prussian war 1871 the strong infantry defence innovated a certain strategy that have lasted until today. Both sides tryed to manouver to get a favoured defancive position. This position had to be so strategigal importent that the opponent had no choice than to attack this strongpoint, and bleed to death in annhilition. Look to Verdun in ww1.

How to make stacking less vital:
THE ONE TO ONE COMBAT
1.The attacker can combat move unlimited land units into a enemy terrritory.
But the attacker can only roll as many dices that there are defending land units.
2.The defender can only roll as many dices that there are attacking land units.
3.Aircrafts may support one matching land unit.

eks:
Fritz attack with 10 land units. Boris defend with 5 land units. Both can only roll 5 dices, each for ever opposit unit.
Boris attack with 2 land units. Fritz defend with 8 land units. Both sides can only roll 2 dices each.
Boris attack with 2 land units supported by 2 fighters. He roll 4 dices. Fritz defend with 8 land units, but can still only roll 2 dices.

Will this end Strafe-attacks with 1 inf and 8 fighters ?
Or Dieppe- Raids?

Does this "one attacking unit face one matching defending unit" reflects reality ?
(or is it just something Adlertag make up to deal with stacking ?)

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:55 am

Guerrilla Guy wrote:In your system do Art still provide Inf Support?

Also to encourage Armor purchase I would consider making them have a direct battle advantage like first cycle opening fire for both Attack and Defense...

GG
Mr. Guy.
I dont have any system, just suggestions. I strongly belive that all units should have multiple funktions. Lets take Artillery:
Artillery may:
1.Independent attack or defend. 4/6
2.Combined Arms.Boost up a matching infantry in both attack and defence.
3.Barrage. Roll dice in opening fire step. Any hits kill 2 inf.units or 1 other unit.
All this funktions has a link to reality, but in order to simplifie a game, to suit as many users as possible, the units cant have multiple funktions. Lets take A&A Europe with escort/intercepting fighters in Strat. Bomb. Raids, and A&A Pac. with Combat Air Patrol. Why cant fighters do this in Revised ?
"Well, it just dont fit" - Mike Selinger
"Lets keep it simple, I make games for thousands (many of them kids)."-Larry.

Mr. Guy.
Huh, you want Tanks to roll in opening fire step ?
No way, only units that deliver indirect fire can roll in opening fire step.
Battleships pre-landing shore bombardment and Anti-Air guns flak-fire roll in this step at present. I would like to see even Bombers carpet-bombing and artillerys barrage roll dice in this step.

Tanks work in a different way, they roll on ground, very close to enemy, and give direct fire. This make them very vulnerable, and in all ww2 battles the tanks was taken as first casualties. (opposit to A&A games). But this profile also give tanks a big punch, wich is multiplied with the surprice factor in first round of combat. If the surprisingly Tank-punch succeed, we have a Breake-Through of enemy lines, wich will be followed up and exploitated. Dug-in Tanks was also used as Anti-Tank weapons, and other tanks was used as close-infantry.support, or as independet Tank-strafe-missions. Tanks must look like this:

Tanks:
1.Independet attack or defend. 6/6
+Surprice. Attacking tanks roll 8 or less for first round of combat only.
+Breakethrough.If attacking tanks firts roll succeed, the tank can roll a extra bonus dice.
2.Combined Arms. Boost up one matching Mech.inf. unit.
3.Anti-Tank. Defending tanks may target attacking tanks.

Bombers:
1.Strategig bombing Raid.
2.Carpet Bombing. Roll dice in opening fire step. Any hit kill 2 inf. or 1 other unit.
3.Combined Arms. A Bomber give ground support and boost up one matching land unit.

Battleships:
1.Shore Bombard. May target blockhouses. Any hit kill 2 inf. or 1 other unit.
2.Long range Big Gun Duell. Roll dice in opening fire step, because its big guns kill smaller ships long before they can fire back.
3.Heavy armoured. Take 2 hits to sink.

This is an advanced game (if its ever made), and need a certain complexity.
Hope this post was informative for your purposes.

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Post by Imperious leader » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:02 pm

Eagleday, i dont lift junk from Don Raes forum. I dont even have 1/1 infantry either . Secondly, you cant change the values of units to abstract the benifit of defending in terrain by building into the value of the unit "what would be the values if they were in Bunkers in the forest". I deal with what the unit brings to the table and create rules to adjust the terrain SEPERATLY. MY ideas create more fluid battles since the values basically are balanced between attack and defence. So now your horde of Russians wont sit in kariella, while the Whermacht bids its time building up its offensive in eastern and in about 6-9 turns goes all in for the gusto..
ID like to see each side try at least once every other turn to attack each other , to better represent the summer offensives that did occur more frequently.

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