Italy

Thanks for your input todate. Here is a collection of my thinking at this point. Please feel free to participate in this on going discussion. Your contributions are appreciated. Tell your A&A friends about this so they have a chance to voice what they want in A-A&A. I'll update the the original posting as changes and new ideas are adopted or contemplated.
Guerrilla Guy
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Post by Guerrilla Guy » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:21 am

They built a jet engine but they never mass produced it... and I remember understanding that their tanks were easy to knock out... make that Tankettes... their main gun mount was a 47 mm... compared to the Allied 75 mm...
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Post by Imperious leader » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:36 pm

The fact that they only really developed "light tanks" has everything to do with the anticipated terrain features they they would be commited to fight in, namely harsh hot desert enviroment. The same went for Early British tanks. Light fast tanks were the order of the day, because a tiger 2 would simply overheat while supplies of petrol in those days could not hope to supply the anticipated consumption that would be required. If Italy decided that its main war effort was to be say focused in the Soviet Union, im sure medium and heavy tanks would have been developed and they did have some better tanks which were employed there. So to summarize italy created tanks that would excell in hot enviroments which is the best type of tank to have given the terrain. Rommel primarily used light and medium tanks as well. Their were no "heavy tanks" in africa. However it is true that near the end of the German effort in tunisia, before they surrender at tunis that some heavy tanks were used, but this area was not at all too far from german central supply lines.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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Post by Guerrilla Guy » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:15 pm

What I am getting at is that Shermans were still light enough that they remained effective in Africa yet they had a heavier gun... correct me if I am wrong on this...
"We're airborne. We’re supposed to be surrounded."

Dick Winters to 2nd Lt. George Rice after being told that the 101st Airborne would be surrounded at Bastogne

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Post by Imperious leader » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:49 am

yes Shermans were medium tanks, and they were used in December and finished up the job by march 43, so the winter had a lot to due with why they were used. In fact as you will see thats the only time the germans used their larger tanks so that 1) it wouldnt overheat and 2) the petrol supplies were very close to the main source (tunis). Its like a poker analogy where the US forces bring in a king in the game, and the germans counter with their trump card an ace so that they can gain an advantage. In both cases the conditions were acceptable for something "larger" on the battlefield. But italy fought in the mountains of yugoslavia, greece and the deserts of Lybia and egypt so a faster, lighter, more fuel effecient tank was needed to transverse the expanse of this area.

The second point is US almost had to use shermans because its the only tank type they had that would be able to match up to even the light panzer class tanks. In the Buldge, youll remember that those same shermans did little against the heavy German tanks. Airpower and better supplies took a toll on the German efforts ( and the 3rd army)
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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Post by Sabre Von Manteuffel » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:10 pm

Italy? Itlay? Italy?

Italy?

:roll: :roll: :roll:
I can not believe the thread here, nor some of the "big names" I've seen on other threads that think this is a good idea.

Italy in Spring of '42 was doing what? Causing more distractions in Africa and the Balkans with his Armies that were so inferior to the Germans its ridiculous (ok, beat me up for that IL and Moody, but Italy!!!!). ///Ok, I just went through and re-read ALL the posts on this thread, so I'm going to be nice (for a change) and elaborate here so as NOT to offend anyone (NUCLEAR)...Italians could fight, they were good soldiers, but their leadership was terrible, and they never pull the trigger properly after all the planning and manuevering to actually not get laughed at 6o years later..../// :lol:

One other edited note: History is written by the victor. I have/had relatives that fought for both sides in all places, and here's an interesting comment from my wife's grandfather (he grew up in a German village that became Poland after the war, and returned "home" after release from a POW camp to what became East Germany....I asked him about his most vivid image from the war (he was on a panzer on Eastern Front late in war--he was young--and captured by the Soviets during his 2nd engagement). As the USSR/US "have Berlin" plan unraveled there was some German prisoner exchanges based off the locality of the prisoners and where they would be when the war ended between the Allied powers. He was exchanged to the US from USSR and interned at Bad Kreuznach until finally released to get trapped behind the Iron Curtain again.....his most vivid memory, and his WORST memory was the POW camp run by the Americans. His best friend that was with him from day one on the front and Soviet captivity died of dehydration in the BK camp---and the prisoners were living, LITERALLY, 3 feet from the river that they were fenced in from. He said the conditions, atmosphere, and treatment was better (not by much) even by the Soviets (and he HATED them!!).

My point....we all have our family that did something in the War, and as they are all dying off, we can only hope to understand a very small portion of what was REALLY going on then!!


What exactly would their role be in AAA? If, by magic Germany was managing to push into Moscow and hold off the Western Allies hordes than the Italian player could declare "I would like to invade Madagascar next round, but do not have the quantity or quality to actually do anything productive in an attack, Germany, help me." Then the German player will be forced to divert 1/10 of his inf and 1/15 of this armor to Madagascar to bale out Il Duce.

...Ridiculous...

2 Rounds after the game opens (early '43 give or take), Italy is negotiaing for peace, Hitler is moving crack troops of the Eastern front to take control of Italy and Balkans, and Mussolini is running for his life.

Event the "somewhat acceptable" concept of Italy being the 3rd Axis but controlled by the German player (albeit separate $ and units) is hard for me to swallow....So is Germany going to have to build a factory along the Med coast somewhere to launch a navy into the Med Sea? Ok, not historic either, but with the odds against the Axis, how many "AXIS STRATEGY" threads mention "turn the Med into a German-controlled lake"????

Or am I supposed to place my INF and ARM on Italian transports, then wait so the Italian player can have me sit there, so I can move off on my next turn into N.Africa :?: Yea, ok....Allied Bombing raid, here we come!!

------------------------
Fine, you want Italy. Add it to AAA. I think its a mistake, but who am I. :wink:

But before I pick up my little plastic units and go home, please consider this Mr. Harris:

Add Italy......



as the 4th Ally. :twisted:[/i]
Last edited by Sabre Von Manteuffel on Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:47 pm

Italy will add alot to the game..
1) it balances out the teams 3 vs 3
2) It is perfect for a player who just wants a small contribution to the game. In other words its the perfect starting point for a new player who wont screw up the game with stupid moves, since italy is a basket case anyway.
3) You can have alternate paths of victory, since now the german fleet is in the baltic, while Italy is in the south focusing on afrika!.

4) It will add cool new pieces and you will take pride in being an Italian!

5) It may increase the sale of pizza and pastas during and after the game

6) You can show the german player how to really hold the northern line in Russia and protect those flanks around Stalingrad.

7) The allies will now conduct an Italian campaign (its now broken into 3-4 spaces).

8) Watch out here comes the Battleships Andria Doria and Littorio! Fiat Airplanes! awesome battle action!

9) can you say Abbondanza?


Notes on Italy:

each turn roll one d6 rolls 1-4 italy surrenders, 5 they surrender and their pieces are exchanged with german pieces, 6 they surrender and their pieces run away.


Italian infantry
attack 0 defend 0

Italian artillery
attack 0 defend 0

Italian Battleships
attack at 4 defend at 4 , but they cant move due to lack of fuel. If under attack they are simply removed from play.

All Italian units cost double, if you want them to be used in combat then triple the cost of each unit.

thats the best i got so far. Looks good right?
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Sabre Von Manteuffel
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Post by Sabre Von Manteuffel » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:54 pm

IL,

here I am editing my post as to NOT offend anyone :roll: and you come and post the PERFECT post (the latter half anyway--we always eat pizza when we play, and I'm not a piece junky!!).

Oh, and I'm not Italian, so I won't take any pride in playing Italy...

and what if you don't have a "rookie" at the table...you draw straws to see who gets stuck with Il Duce. Yippie.

-Sabre :evil:
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Post by Imperious leader » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:20 pm

Come on! Italy is cool and you know it.

You gotta love the concept of italy taking out neutrals just to expand her power base and afford one fiat tank each turn. If we ever play this advanced game i will play Italy and force the worlds trains to run on time!
The war making potential between japan and italy are not far off by the way. Check it out.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

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