NA: Tiger Tanks

Have you been playing with some house rules over the years - or even recently invented, that you'd like to share?

Which of the following variants (No1-4) of Tiger Tanks do you think would be the most balanced and useful NA for Germany?

No1
2
17%
No2
3
25%
No3
7
58%
No4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 12

Juggernought
Posts: 150
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NA: Tiger Tanks

Post by Juggernought » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:44 am

1. Tiger Tank Battalions
The massively powerful Tiger tanks were virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield.
You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks. A Tiger tank costs 8 IPC's and may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. Tigers have a movement capability of 2, but cannot blitz as regular tanks.They attack and defend on a 4 or less in the opening fire step of combat. Any casualties are destroyed and removed from play, with no chance to counter-attack.

2. Tiger Tank Battalions
The massively powerful Tiger tanks were assigned to special heavy tank battalions to support and reinforce other units during a campaign.
You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks. A Tiger tank costs 7 IPC's and may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. They attack and defend on a 4 or less. Moreover a Tiger tank give one matching infantry an increased combat capability; attack on a 2 (even if supported by artillery) and defends on a 3, for the first cycle of combat only.

3. Tiger Tanks
The massively powerful King Tiger was virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield.
You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. Your Tigers cost 6 IPC:s, defends on a 4 and attack on a 4. Tigers may be built or rebuilt, if they are destroyed, in Germany only. One can use regular armor painted in black as Tiger tank units.

4. Royal Tigers
The massively powerful King Tiger was virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield. A single King Tiger tank could halt the advance of a complete armored division.
You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. Your Tigers cost 6 IPC’s, attack and defend in the opening fire step of combat. Tigers may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. One can use regular armor painted in black as Tiger tank units.


Background
The influence of the Tiger on Allied morale, known as Tigerphobia, was so powerful that British General Montgomery banned all reports mentioning it's prowess in battle. Perhaps the Tiger's greatest fame was gained in a single action in Normandy where the famous commander SS Obersturmführer Michael Wittman destroyed an entire column of 25 tanks, 14 half-tracks and 14 bren-gun carriers in a few short minutes with one Tiger. Due to Allied air superiority, the Tigers in Normandy and France were employed mainly in a static defensive role. This conserved fuel as the Tiger normally consumed huge amounts of petrol. It also kept the mechanical breakdowns to a minimum.

Tigers were mechanically unreliable (mostly because of their weight, which strained the entire mechanical system) as compared to the Soviet T-34 or US M4-Sherman. More over they had a small radius of action in contrast to the aforementioned Allied tanks, and were so large that most terrain rendered them practically useless as breakthrough weapons for which they were manufactured. They could not cross most of the bridges in Europe, and had to be shipped by train to the battlefield (they would break down if they had to be driven for any great distance). They guzzled gasoline, were extremely slow (with an average speed of about 4-9 miles per hour on rough terrain or dirt roads - well below the stated maximum design speed of 25 mph), and had an extremely short combat radius and duration. The high kill ratios when they did engage in combat were offset by their tendency to either run out of gas or break down in combat, which resulted in large numbers having to be abandoned (more than were destroyed by Allied tanks). Also, U.S. and British forces had superior mobility due to widespread mechanization, as well as superior artillery and airpower. Because of the immobility and limited numbers of the Tiger tanks, it was possible to avoid confronting them with tanks, and instead, Allied forces would try to bypass and isolate them, or destroy them with heavy artillery or airpower.

The Tiger's two greatest strengths were its main gun and its heavy armor. The combination of this massive armor and powerful gun made for an almost unbeatable tank. Enemy crews often watched helplessly as their shots bounced off the Tiger and their own vehicles were quickly destroyed, often from great distances. The Tiger I was very maneuverable for its weight and size, and it was only 2km/h slower than the Panzer III and Panzer IV.However the Tigers would have been much more effective if the mechanical reliability was higher.

Each Tiger I tank cost 800,000 Reichmarks, which was equivalent to the weekly wages of 30,000 people, and required 300,000 man-hours to produce. At those rates, the Tigers were very much high end super-weapons, equivalent on a cost basis to something like the U.S. B-29, which cost about a million dollars a piece, or a Navy destroyer.

Juggernought
Posts: 150
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Post by Juggernought » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:10 am

Looks like #3 will be the most favored variant. I would rewrite this variant like this:

3. Tiger Tank Battalions
The massively powerful Tiger tanks were assigned to heavy tank battalions to support other units for special operations, to be deployed en masse for decisive shock action.
You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. A Tiger tank attack and defends on a 4 or less. Each Tiger tank costs 6 IPC's and may be rebuilt if destroyed. Tigers have a movement capability of 2, but cannot blitz as regular tanks.

Any comments?

However I will wait for at least 15 votes before any decision will be taken. But I like it! :D

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adlertag
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Post by adlertag » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:57 pm

TIGER TANKS.

Image

Good stuff, Juggernought.

I woted for nr 3, because that was closest to real world.
*Can only build one each turn. :D Good, elite units was scarce.
* Cost 6 ipc. :D Right cost. Elite units dont neccessarily cost much more.
*Att/Def on 4 or less. :D Feels right too.

About the opening fire step.
Only units that deliver indirect long distance fire, from wich its impossible to defend against, should be able to roll dice in opening fire step.
Battleships shore bombard, heavy artillery barrage, rockets and Bombers deliver a type of fire that justifies an preemptive roll.
But not Tanks.
Tanks do close combat, and even if they succeed, like in Poland, France and initial stage of Barbarossa, they got damaged by use, and since they faced combat first, they always took casualties.

About boosting up matching infantry.
Yes, Tanks supported infantry, but A&A units represents armies of 100 000 men, so I dont think that rule fits here.

Blitzkrieg consept.
What I miss in your rules, big J., is something to reflect the spesial way tanks work.
Like roll a second dice if the first was successful.
1. Tiger Tanks roll a die, 4 or less is hit. This represent the Breakethrough.
2.If the first roll was successful (Breakethrough was sucessful), the Tiger Tanks roll an extra bonus die, 4 or less is hit. This represent the Exploitation after the enemy line are broken up.

This will not be too strong, since there are only 3 Tiger Tanks in play at any given time.
Hope this reply was informative for your purposes.

Juggernought
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:19 pm

Post by Juggernought » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:44 pm

adlertag wrote:TIGER TANKS.

Image

Good stuff, Juggernought.

I woted for nr 3, because that was closest to real world.
*Can only build one each turn. :D Good, elite units was scarce.
* Cost 6 ipc. :D Right cost. Elite units dont neccessarily cost much more.
*Att/Def on 4 or less. :D Feels right too.

About the opening fire step.
Only units that deliver indirect long distance fire, from wich its impossible to defend against, should be able to roll dice in opening fire step.
Battleships shore bombard, heavy artillery barrage, rockets and Bombers deliver a type of fire that justifies an preemptive roll.
But not Tanks.
Tanks do close combat, and even if they succeed, like in Poland, France and initial stage of Barbarossa, they got damaged by use, and since they faced combat first, they always took casualties.

About boosting up matching infantry.
Yes, Tanks supported infantry, but A&A units represents armies of 100 000 men, so I dont think that rule fits here.

Blitzkrieg consept.
What I miss in your rules, big J., is something to reflect the spesial way tanks work.
Like roll a second dice if the first was successful.
1. Tiger Tanks roll a die, 4 or less is hit. This represent the Breakethrough.
2.If the first roll was successful (Breakethrough was sucessful), the Tiger Tanks roll an extra bonus die, 4 or less is hit. This represent the Exploitation after the enemy line are broken up.

This will not be too strong, since there are only 3 Tiger Tanks in play at any given time.
Hope this reply was informative for your purposes.
Well, try this one if you just want your German tanks to be more important! It represent the supreme tactics and doctrine that German units possesed. This NA has been incorporated in my NA for A&A:E, version 1.2! So I suggest you take a look at the NAs again!


Blitzkrieg
German warfare combined the use of mobile units with the close support of airpower into a steel juggernaut emphasize speedy movement and maximization of battlefield opportunities.
Each of your attacking fighters give one matching tank an increased attack factor of 5 or less. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The increased attack ability is for the first round only and is cancelled if defending fighters are present.

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Imperious leader
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Post by Imperious leader » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:12 pm

yep thats good. Dont allow to many of adlertags "bonus" rules to permeate or you will be soon faced with a soup with too many ingredients spoiling the combat system. In his games im sure Norway defends at 8 for each unit with a bonus for each unit because it fights in Oslo for Gaulitier Quisling.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Juggernought
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Post by Juggernought » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:56 pm

Imperious leader wrote:yep thats good. Dont allow to many of adlertags "bonus" rules ...
What about change the Blitzkrieg NA from tanks attacking on a 5 or less in the first round of combat to a opening fire ability instead? I have tried it in a two games and it seems to be balanced, but if one can chose then one most likely chose to attack on a 5! Hmmm... :roll:

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Post by Imperious leader » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:35 pm

The basic idea behind this tiger tank thing is to demonstrate German superiority in armor.. so the 4/4 tank is fine, but opening fire modification of +1 with a matching bomber/fighter should apply to any nations attacks not just German.
have you done any work on tank destroyers? In revised id introduce them to US, German, and Russian players ( with some limit on quantity of these units) move 2, cost 5, attack at 2, defence at 3, but the kicker is +2 against all armor attacks . So their hits go against armor before causualties go against other units.

Another unit could be instead of tiger tanks for Germany you could introduce "heavy tanks "(again US, Soviet, and German only). move 2, cost 7, attack at 4, defend at 4 (Limit 3-5 builds)

last idea is to have a self-propelled artillery/anti-tank gun/assault gun type of unit. Its basically an anti-tank (armor) unit which gets one shot against each attacking or defending armor units hitting at 1-2 and loses are removed before return fire. Moves 2, costs 8, attacks /defends at 2 against armor targets.NOTE: this unit gets one roll against every armor unit (like anti-air gun) If no armor is in the enemy force pool , then just rolls 1-2 like regular artillery units. Also, adds +1 to infantry attacking.

Ok last idea: Each tank can beef up two attacking infantry +1, so 2 tanks allow 4 infantry to get a +1 attack modifier, this is to compliment artillery +1 modifier.

very last idea: each bomber can transport 2 infantry if not used for any other purpose.
We really need an Axis and Allies World War one game so i can play that on August 1st, 2014.

Juggernought
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:19 pm

Post by Juggernought » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:05 pm

Imperious leader wrote:The basic idea behind this tiger tank thing is to demonstrate German superiority in armor.....

In revised id introduce them to US, German, and Russian players ( with some limit on quantity of these units) move 2, cost 5, attack at 2, defence at 3, but the kicker is +2 against all armor attacks . So their hits go against armor before causualties go against other units.....

very last idea: each bomber can transport 2 infantry if not used for any other purpose.
Nice, I had ideas like yours years ago and tested them as well. What I found out was that the game doesn't get better by the use of more units! The Tigers here are just an exception to that, cause I find it cool and balanced without messing up the game board with too many different kinda of units. However I like your variant of tank destroyers it quit like the one I used a few years ago.

The strongest arguments to that the tank destroyers are more cool than game balanced are that only Russia will truely gain from a such unit or NA. and that there are no space on the gameboard for such a unit!

However it would be a strong NA for Russia, probably a better and more useful NA than Salvage. However since Germany almost completely relies on tanks, it can not be too powerful. Not like yours, tanks are targetted as first cassualties. Maybe if attacked by a force of at least one tank, then Russian tanks defends on 4 first cycle of combat! Much the same as Blitzkrieg. What do you think? I hope you understand that the golden way to incorporate new kind of units is by upgrading the exsisting units with NAs!

Assault Guns for Russia is somthing I have been trying for a while, as an NA that improves Russian armor. Assault Guns works like artillery in my variants, by increasing one matching infantry's attack capability by 1 during the first cycle of combat. Much like artillery, but only first cycle of combat! Since I have Katyusha Rockets this NA seems to be less needed! What do you think???

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