Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

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Imperator
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Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by Imperator » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:25 pm

Hey Larry,

Why is it that all Axis & Allies games only feature half the war? The latest iterations of A&A (1941, 1942 2e, 1940 2e) are the finest editions ever made but they still have the same fatal flaw that your older games had. That is they end as soon as the tipping point is reached. If the Axis topple Russia (or something similar) then the Allies concede; if the Axis are stopped outside the gates of Moscow, then the Axis surrender and a new game is launched. There is no incentive to allow the Allies to launch D-Day and liberate western Europe or Nimitz to island hop in the Pacific, or ANZAC and MacArthur to push through New Guinea. So much of the history of the war is lost.

Why not give an incentive to play until Berlin and Tokyo are occupied? Games like Europe Engulfed (GMT Games) give the Allies a limited timeframe for defeating the Axis. The Axis and Allies are graded based on either on how long they held out or how quickly they conquered the other. Could something like that be adapted to Axis & Allies--officially?

Victory Cities were a good idea but in practice there aren't enough of them at outlying points to make them workable. They are either too easy or too difficult to capture (i.e. the game was unwinnable for one side before they were reached).

In the original AA Pacific game, you used a Victory point countdown clock to force the Allies to attack aggressively and give Japan incentive to hold out after hope of outright victory had passed. Why did you abandon this with the new AA Pacific 1940 and the other new games?

To me this remains the last big issue with the Axis & Allies series.

Larry
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Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by Larry » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:47 pm

There is nothing stopping you from fighting to the very last man standing. Go for it if you want.
I don’t seem to recall any rules that say that a given game is over if the Axis topple Russia, but I do seem to recall rules that state that this or that game ends if Berlin and Tokyo are occupied...

I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Your post is totally misleading and inaccurate ... All Axis & Allies games do not feature only half the war as your opening sentence would seem to suggest/. You’re starting to sound like a Republican Congressmen from Texas I know of. Facts and accuracy mean nothing to him either.

In any case you don't seem to be too happy with the present victory conditions or the way the games you play unfold. There's always room for... and I'm always open to.... improving the games. Thanks for your input.

dreadreaver
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Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by dreadreaver » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:46 pm

Larry, I think he's saying that the rules don't provide an incentive to continue to the "true" end, instead of there being a lack of rules to provide this end.

Sure, there are rules for the allies to control Berlin, Tokyo (And perhaps Rome) to win, but the Axis would never play to the end if their hopes of victory is not in reach.
If it seems the Allies would win eventually no matter what, then the Axis would probably concede, as continued play would be a waste of time since the outcome is already known.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. If you've made decisions to make you lose your opportunities to win, then maybe you really should call it quits. It is war after all.

Imperator
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Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by Imperator » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:10 pm

Larry, you completely misunderstood my post and inferred a lot of things that were totally off base.

I've played Axis & Allies since 1984 and own every edition since 1st edition Game Master from Milton Bradley. I was one of the first members of your old forum, I think I came in a little before Bert & Ernie (Elbowmaster) and you and I have chatted many times over the years. Real life caught up to me and I have been away and my old username lost. I have played thousands of games of A&A against many hundreds of other players. No, I don't think I dislike the game or that I'm "unhappy with the way the game unfolds".

If I disliked the game I wouldn't waste my time posting this. If I disliked the game I wouldn't bother trying to make suggestions that I feel could improve the game or offer new options. Axis & Allies is a better game today than it was in 1984 thanks in part to some of my suggestions along with many other fans of the game.

I think it's a safe bet that the majority of Axis & Allies players think the victory conditions are an area that could be improved. I might go as far as saying the overwhelming majority >90% think so. Heck, that is why people griped and victory cities got added to the mix in Revised (2004).

Put away your jump to conclusion mat and cut back on the coffee lest you sound like a Republican Senator from Arizona. :roll:
dreadreaver wrote:Larry, I think he's saying that the rules don't provide an incentive to continue to the "true" end, instead of there being a lack of rules to provide this end.

Sure, there are rules for the allies to control Berlin, Tokyo (And perhaps Rome) to win, but the Axis would never play to the end if their hopes of victory is not in reach.
If it seems the Allies would win eventually no matter what, then the Axis would probably concede, as continued play would be a waste of time since the outcome is already known.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. If you've made decisions to make you lose your opportunities to win, then maybe you really should call it quits. It is war after all.
Yes, dreadreaver, you got it exactly. The rules say the game ends when two Axis capitals are under Allied control at the end of the USA turn or after 10 victory cities, but NO ONE EVER plays the rules as Larry wrote them. There is simply no incentive to. I think there might be room for improvement there. Then again, maybe the Axis & Allies system isn't conducive to that. The only way to know is to try it.

AC
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Location: Australia

Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by AC » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:25 am

Interesting forum topic even with the political input.

As always I think the rules larry put in place make sense. I also know what you are saying imperator. In reality though I think what larry did is right. If you look at WWII the axis powers just prolonged the inevitable. Why play a game the same way? Hitler for example was basically finished in 42 but he prolonged the war until the absolute end. If he had destroyed Russia as he intended it would have been different but when he lost at Stalingrad this was the end for him.

Ps.....I know most of the forum members are American but the political digs may confuse us Australians, English and other members. Haha but it does keep it interesting and heated.

Pps.....I love 1914 larry, great game.

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Flashman
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Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by Flashman » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:19 am

The standard setup is fictional in several ways:

It is deliberately "balanced" to give the Axis an even or near-even chance of victory. This is wildly unhistorical, but entirely understandable for a game.

Japan and the USSR are assumed to be enemies from the start, which completely annihilates any possibility of a game playing like real history. If you want a full-blown Pacific war then you need to enforce a non-aggression pact between USSR & Japan until either Germany or the Western Allies are defeated. Even then, Japan might decide to attack Britain on the Asian mainland rather than burn up their units fighting America for empty ocean.

It could be argued that the war was in effect decided (German failure to take Moscow) before it even became a World War (Pearl Harbor), so a completely historical setup would make for a dull game.

Even so, I've always felt too much emphasis is placed on capitals; for example I feel that a power should always be able to continue collecting income and building units as long as it controls an original production centre (i.e. factory.)

I played too many games of Revised which were really all about who can pile the most units into Moscow; often with 3 or 4 different powers each controlling the Soviet capital in a single game round.

So I prefer: a power is defeated only when it loses its last home PC/factory, BUT when this happens it is permanently out of the game, and cannot be liberated.

For example, France was defeated in 1940. When the Allies "liberated" France in 1944 its resourses became available to the Allies, but new French units were equipped and supplied by the UK & USA. At the most, I would allow limited infantry placement in Liberated powers, and these would be UK/US units rather than a resurrected French player getting back in the game.

It was more economical to supply French recruits with American equipment than to rebuild the French war industry from scratch. The assumption should be that a defeated country has its weapons industry either looted or disabled. It can supply man power and basic IPC income, nothing more.

Larry
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Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by Larry » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:08 am

Hey Imperator... Love you man!
But please don’t suggest that I sound like a Republican Senator from Arizona. We’ve got to stop insulting each other in this way.... I know I started it – Sorry about that. I won’t do it again.
Hey by the way... Thanks for your support and interest in A&A over these many years and be assured... I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Hey AC... Who the hell asked you to butt in? Mind your own Aussie business and go put out some local forest fires or something. Just joking with ya dude and by the way... sorry about all that loss of life and property during your current summer. We here in the US experienced more than our share of fires as well during our recent summer – Tragic. You make an interesting point about the Axis prolonging the war beyond all hope of victory. This kind of brings up the “human element” in this equation

And finally... Thank you Flashman for one more of your many suggestions on how Axis & Allies should be changed or altered to make it so much better than it is. I must admit that often after reading something you post here I find myself stopping in my tracks and saying to myself ... “Oh... that’s an interesting idea... naaa.”

AC
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Location: Australia

Re: Axis & Allies Victory Conditions

Post by AC » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:01 pm

Thanks larry. Yeah I know your bush fires are terrible every year. The odd thing about ours this year is that our summer doesn't actually start until December.

Keep making awesome games my friend. I have a session of D Day booked today with my brother.

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